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#218492 - 03/31/12 07:59 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
As far as I understand it, the "guard" felt threatened as soon as he saw a young black kid in a hoodie

Exactly.
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#218493 - 03/31/12 07:59 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Hi Olyve glad to see you're posting! ThumbsUp
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#218518 - 03/31/12 11:20 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
I do not agree with "stand your ground" -- it is merely an excuse for murder.

When faced with danger, one should seek an exit. If none, then reasonable defensive actions are justified.



A properly written stand your ground law reads pretty much like that Phil. The difference between a stand your ground law and what stood in place "for generations" (actually NOT generations) was that prior to SYG many states required PROOF that the subject had excercised a "DUTY TO RETREAT" and if no proof existed they were at risk of being charged with manslaughter or murder even if they were being attacked.

Some states had such onerous gun laws that nothing mattered, if you HAD a gun in your possession, even in your own home, you were toast, like in Washington DC.

Instead, a properly written SYG law simply says "don't START nuthin, won't BE nuthin" or in expanded terms, if you are on your property, at your place of business, in your car or anywhere that you have a right to be, IF YOU ARE CONFRONTED and attacked you have the right to use deadly force to save your life WITHOUT having to show proof that you excercised a DUTY TO RETREAT, which was almost impossible to prove!

What's missing from these stupidly written CURRENT SYG laws is any admonition that says you GIVE UP that right to stand your ground and use deadly force IF you are the one who pursues and confronts someone who is where THEY have a right to be.
(not on your property, not entering your place of work without permission, not entering your car or invading your personal space)

In other words, Zimmerman is squirming through a very large loophole which only exists because there was no clear demarcation that says he has forfeited his right to self defense by sticking his nose in someone else's business.

Phil, I say all the above because it is very much worth noting that the two authors of Florida's new SYG law both said that Zimmerman deserves NO protection under THEIR law.

The problem is, they failed to codify that in black and white when they wrote the dumb thing. In essence they've possibly implicated themselves by admitting their failure.

The reality is, it's Trayvon Martin who should have had the right to stand HIS ground when pursued and confronted by Zimmerman, who had no legal authority to pursue him, except in his own mind.
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The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#218555 - 04/01/12 02:24 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I simply do not get this. The law is clear. If you THINK you are threatened then you get to kill the threatener. Nothing else is involved. The only amazing thing is that more people haven't been killed. You can kill your wife, for instance, and all you gotta do is say you THOUGHT she threatened you. Same for killing a husband, the neighbor, the neighbor's children, politicians, whoever. Only YOU know what you thought, there are no other issues.

Those who live in one of these stand your ground states should be glad your state legislators are so concerned for your well being - well almost?

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#218557 - 04/01/12 02:35 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Jeff
Quote:
or in expanded terms, if you are on your property, at your place of business, in your car or anywhere that you have a right to be, IF YOU ARE CONFRONTED and attacked you have the right to use deadly force to save your life WITHOUT having to show proof that you excercised a DUTY TO RETREAT
raises a different issue. Laws have always been different under circumstances of your home, and frequently your car or other space you have the exclusive legal right to occupy.
Defense of home
Duty to retreat
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#218558 - 04/01/12 02:37 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: pdx rick]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Originally Posted By: california rick
Hi Olyve glad to see you're posting! ThumbsUp

Ditto!!!
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#218562 - 04/01/12 03:03 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12728
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Jeff
Quote:
or in expanded terms, if you are on your property, at your place of business, in your car or anywhere that you have a right to be, IF YOU ARE CONFRONTED and attacked you have the right to use deadly force to save your life WITHOUT having to show proof that you excercised a DUTY TO RETREAT
raises a different issue. Laws have always been different under circumstances of your home, and frequently your car or other space you have the exclusive legal right to occupy.
Defense of home
Duty to retreat


But one reason why the concept of "stand your ground" caught the eye of people is because "duty to retreat" had become so overbearing that prosecutors were turning busted down interior doors into "insufficient evidence of duty to retreat".

Short of chewing your way through a brick wall and offering up part of one of your hands to a knife blade, people who had shot someone in self defense were becoming increasingly worried that their cases would not hold up satisfactorily enough in court.

And finally, enough people decided to say "a lot of these cases should not even result in an arrest because the evidence was clearly in favor of the defendant".

Duty to retreat was being abused in too many cases where the shootings were justified, prosecutors were also resorting to saying that because a shooting did not happen completely within the confines of a dwelling that self defense was not justified, all manner of minutae was being turned into a means of entrapping law abiding people who were simply saving their own lives or the lives of loved ones.

Phil, I technically understand and agree with the idea of matching force for force, i.e. using fists to repel fists instead of resorting to a gun for instance. But then you open up a whole new can of worms.
If the attacker is carrying a concealed weapon of some kind and happens to be better with their fists than the victim, and succeeds in knocking the victim unconscious and the victim awakens to find the attacker standing over them with a gun, is it not too late to figure out if there was a reasonable match of force for force?

If the attacker is coming at me and is wearing the kind of clothing where I can tell they're not armed (tight tee shirt and shorts, no telltale sign of a weapon in their pocket)then, if I am not overwhelmed with fear I know I can avoid using a firearm.

But Phil, are we not then putting so much pressure on a victim that it now adds to the likelihood that the victim will be unable to defend themselves AT ALL, when the reality is, the attacker has no business attacking.

Who is in the wrong again, Phil?
The attacker is!

No Phil, the concept of stand your ground is a good one in principle, provided the circumstances in which one is allowed to use deadly force are clearly defined and better yet the circumstances where one GIVES UP that right are even better defined.

And the beauty of it all is, defining where you give up those rights is a very simple thing:

If you started something, you have no right to claim self defense if it was reasonable to expect you NOT to start something.

It was entirely reasonable to expect Zimmerman to leave Martin alone. It was entirely reasonable to expect Zimmerman to understand that by pursuing and confronting Martin he was forfeiting his self defense rights.

And it was entirely reasonable to expect the police to take all that into consideration and make an arrest.

And Florida's law, by admission of its own authors, makes no provision to define where people like Zimmerman are CLEARLY in the wrong.

The concept and principle are fine, deadly force is reasonable.
Poorly written laws are what's at fault for not defining the rules under which deadly force is okay, and not okay, in very SIMPLE and EASY TO UNDERSTAND terms.

"Don't START nuthin, won't BE nuthin."
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#218715 - 04/02/12 01:51 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Phil Hoskins]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7503
Loc: Athens, Ga.
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Originally Posted By: california rick
Hi Olyve glad to see you're posting! ThumbsUp

Ditto!!!

Thanks guys. Truly.
I'm around.
I'll jump in when I see one where I might have something to say that might add a new dimension.
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"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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#218716 - 04/02/12 03:05 AM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40554
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
I don't see how SYG law affects this case when Zimmerman was the pursuer. 911 clearly stated: We don't need you to do that.

I hope the guy gets life in prison.
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#220966 - 04/25/12 10:24 PM Re: The Trayvon Martin - George Zimmerman case [Re: Golem]
numan Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Zimmerman's Wife Admits Z Used Self-Defense Excuse Years Ago

Quote:
George Zimmerman took the witness stand at his own bond hearing this morning in a Florida courtroom....
Zimmerman said, "I thought he was a little bit younger than I am."
Yet on the 911 call Zimmerman knew Trayvon was no where near Z's age.
---- 911 dispatcher: "How old would you say he is?"
---- Zimmerman: "He's got something on his shirt. About like his late teens."
---- 911 dispatcher: "Late teens?"
---- Zimmerman: "Uh, huh."

Zimmerman is 28 years old and he will be 29 years old in October.
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