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#22406 - 07/19/07 11:40 PM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: Ken Condon]
Tatuma Offline
old hand

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 4290
Guns are the greatest invention of mankind, bar none. They are the final triumph of the intellect over the brawn, the final equalizer of man, and they look pretty durn cool.



There are many dangerous things out there – criminals, psychos, baboons, wild boars, Kennedys, etc. – and one is a fool not to defend themselves. Hell, I’d say a woman living alone without a gun is clinically insane. And the second amendment is the only amendment we really need; everyone will always respect your rights if you have a gun pointed at them. Thus, anyone against guns is either evil or stupid or both and is deserving of a punch’n.

Now, some people may think I would have softened my stance on firearms after I was shot by a chimpanzee, but I’m not going to selfishly turn against a fundamental right because of one accident (and, to be clear, the accident was the chimp getting hold of a loaded gun; he shot me on purpose and I appropriately sought vengeance). So on guns, put me down as fer it.

chimps with guns the video

Chimps with guns


Edited by Tatuma (07/19/07 11:44 PM)
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There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
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#22409 - 07/20/07 12:36 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: Tatuma]
stereoman Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 15646
Loc: Asheville, NC


Keyboard splatter Tat.
_________________________
Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)


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#22411 - 07/20/07 01:10 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: stereoman]
olyve Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 7509
Loc: Athens, Ga.
well I'm going to step right in here...very carefully... amongst all the...umm...splatter and stuff \:o
and post a sirus one I've been working on.

 Originally Posted By: Greger
Being at the top of the food chain earns a species certain rights but doesn't earn it the right to willfully abuse it's food sources and lesser competitors.


Yes. Also being at the top of the food chain, we owe something back (imho) in the way of compassion and caring to the universe that has served us so well. Being cruel to animals and those lesser than us is.....cruel. It is out of sorts with the space we share with them.

Now all that said.
I am struck by this 'debate' about animal rights and have been wondering why it is making me a little cranky.
I cleaned a house today where a doe and her 3 (yes 3!) fawns, dallied about in the backyard the whole entire time I was there. It was beautiful to see. I can't IMAGINE someone wanting to shoot and eat her.
I personally kill almost no insect or animal for any reason.
However, I don't want to get sidetracked into people's rights (or not) to do that because I am trying to make a different point.

At least half this country doesn't care (judging by how they vote) if some HUMANS don't have rights at all.
20,000 die each year for lack of health care, torture is ok, bombing 30 people to kill 2 terrorists is just fine.
Collateral damage? Who's gives a f*ck?

I'm not sure debating animal rights isn't jumping a rung. Shouldn't we get the 'top of the food chain' straightened out first?
At the same time.....isn't abusing animals often a precursor to some really really nasty stuff? Jeffery Dahmer comes to mind.

Did somebody suggest that we might actually be a rung below animals? not quite Naomi <grin>?
_________________________

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

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#22414 - 07/20/07 01:17 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: olyve]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3559
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
We owe the world and it's lesser life forms absolutely nothing. The Almighty has created and given to us the entire world and all it contains for our sustenance and enjoyment.

TAT is dead on--Guns are the ultimate proof of our nearly divine state, proof that the Almighty loves us above all other things in His creation.


Edited by Irked (07/20/07 01:22 AM)
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#22417 - 07/20/07 01:52 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: Irked]
Tatuma Offline
old hand

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 4290
Re: Top of the food chain

This is relative, as our, dangerous to rodents and birds, Calico learned yet again as a red fox chased her from the woods to the cat door. It was very close, and a dreadful noise, but I have seen been assured that foxes dont kill cats, and that Trudy must have gotten too close to her den. (great, there are going to be a family of foxes to deal with)

I am starting to instill this awareness into son of Tat, who will be moving to the West coast, escorted and introduced to the West by me on a ROAD TRIP! He needs to start understanding about not being the top of the food chain, rather than learning the hard way.

When young he used to enjoy chaseing birds, because they always ran or flew away. One day when he was 2-3 yrs we went to a park where there were ducks, geese, and swans. Clearly all fit nicely into the bird category and thus were fair game. I, with great interest and anticipation, watched him closing on them until one turned on him and gave him a most impressive full wingspread aggressive display.


The look on his face was priceless when he learned that all birds dont run , but I would rather he learn about cougars and griz etc in a less direct way.

TAT
_________________________
There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit

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#22419 - 07/20/07 02:07 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: Irked]
Tatuma Offline
old hand

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 4290
 Originally Posted By: Irked
We owe the world and it's lesser life forms absolutely nothing. The Almighty has created and given to us the entire world and all it contains for our sustenance and enjoyment.

TAT is dead on--Guns are the ultimate proof of our nearly divine state, proof that the Almighty loves us above all other things in His creation.


The Almighty works in mysterious ways His/Her wonders to perform.
One can only surmise about why He/She waited so long to provide guns for Creation??


Maybe it would have messed with the survival of the fittest, or perhaps personkind had some lessons that needed learning before reaching dominion over all things.

TAT


Edited by Tatuma (07/20/07 02:07 AM)
_________________________
There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit

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#22424 - 07/20/07 03:54 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: Phil Hoskins]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
A couple of points:

1. Saying man has natural rights grounded in the nature of man is the same as a pronouncement. It is an unsupportable assertion of fact which refers to itself for proof of its veracity. Circular logic at its worst.


Not really. It would be circular if he said that man was a part of nature, had a nature, and thus had natural rights. Notice the unexamined nature of that statement.:-) Man's natural rights were a result of analysis of Man's nature, and that is what Rothbard was saying. Surely from Aristotle to the modern philosopher, the study of man's nature has been a prime method of learning about ourselves and our place in the world?

 Quote:

2. To have dominion over certainly is not equal to "doing what you want with". A shepherd does have dominion but is charged with caring for and protecting the flock, and if necessary killing one of it for his survival. The notion that the creation is here for our pleasure is so absurd and revolting that to assert it offends the spirit of life itself.


Agreed. And a point I have occassionally made. But, do you agree that Man has natural Rights? Do you agree that they are negative Rights? Do you think animals have the same or similar rights?
Yours,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#22426 - 07/20/07 04:05 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: BoogieMan]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: BoogieMan
There seems to be a new ongoing 'debate' going on in the web world now over the recent Michael Vick topic by those who espouse libertarian beliefs. I am not accusing anyone here of this, but I do notice a similar line of thought with this thread as I have seen elsewhere.


You are incorrect. I had to google the name to find out who you were referring to and to see what he was charged with doing. This thread has no connection to his story. As to libertarians -- some people are quick to label someone as such without really knowing what libertarianism is, and others happily claim to be a libertarian but are without a clue as to what libertarianism is. Labels -- tricky things, wot!:-)

 Quote:

I do not view animals' rights as important in this debate, as I do the responsibility we as human beings have with reguards to how we treat said animals with respect.


Upon what do you base this "responsibility", boogieman?
Yours,
Issodhos


Edited by issodhos (07/20/07 04:09 AM)
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#22427 - 07/20/07 04:33 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: Mellowicious]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
 Originally Posted By: Mellowicious


Governments may or may not be instituted among lions, but if they were, their purpose would be to secure these rights - not to grant them.


So far, we are in agreement, Mellowicious.

 Quote:

There are similar problems throughout, but I'll take exception to one in particular:
 Quote:
The fundamental natural Right of Man is self-ownership -- the ownership of one's person.


Clearly the original document did not include women; nor did it include men of color. Only later was that natural Right Recognized.


Actually, the Declaration of Independence made no such distinction. Doesn't really matter because the Declaration of Independence is not a legally binding document, and my use of portions of it in my example was because it is relatively familiar wording and those portions I used were reflective of the pre-existing philosophy on natural Rights. You do touch on a good point in using the word, "recognized", though. Though one may be prevented from exercising one's Rights, they remain unalienable. And that is, I think, an extremely important though little understood truth concerning Rights.

 Quote:

Were I a lion, I might say that it's simply a natural step to recognize my people. Your arguments on this one are a direct parallel to those used against the non-white and the female. They worked - for awhile - in those situations; as a rhetorical device , I think perhaps their time is over.


Piffle. Not even a good try, Mellowicious.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#22429 - 07/20/07 04:51 AM Re: THE “RIGHTS” OF ANIMALS [Re: stereoman]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
[quote=stereoman]
Why change the debate to whether lions should respect each others' rights? Isn't the question whether humans should respect their rights? It matters not a whit whether lions are capable of cognitive decision-making processes because we are not intent upon making laws that regulate the behavior of lions, we are instead concerned with the behavior of humans. So it makes no difference if the lion is aware of being mistreated by humans, or how the lion may or may not "feel" about that.

It seems to me the only one attempting to change the debate is you, Stereoman. It is about whether animals have the same Rights as Man -- not "whether humans should respect their rights".

 Quote:

Returning again to the Straw Man in Rothbard's opening sentence:


You can return all you want, Stereoman, there is no straw man.

 Quote:

I think it's very much worthwhile to examine what rights animals ought to have, and whether - since humans are animals and clearly we agree that they should and do enjoy rights that other animals do not - some other animals ought to have rights that lesser animals don't.


Show a little more patience and a little less antagonism and perhaps we will get there.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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