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#222669 - 05/15/12 01:24 PM The Case of the Missing Terrorists
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
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The Case of the Missing Terrorists

Quote:
A couple of weeks after the alleged bin Laden killing, the Seals unit, or most of it, was wiped out in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan. * ....
...the absence of easy-to-do acts of terrorism suggests that the terrorist threat is more hype than reality. Yet, we have an expensive, intrusive security apparatus that seems to have no real function except to exercise power over American citizens....
In place of real terrorists carrying out easy plots, we have "terrorist" plots dreamed up by FBI and CIA agents, who then recruit some hapless or demented dupes, bribing them with money and heroic images of themselves, and supplying them with the plot and fake explosives. These are called "sting operations," but they are not. They are orchestrations by our own security agencies that produce fake terrorist plots that are then "foiled" by the security agencies that hatched the plots....
The "War on Terror" is a hoax, one that has been successfully used to destroy the US Constitution and to complete the transformation of law from a shield of the people into a weapon in the hands of the state.
emphases added.

* How convenient!!

Paul Craig Roberts was an editor of the Wall Street Journal and an Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury.
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#222674 - 05/15/12 02:58 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: numan]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4788
Loc: Highlands, Tx
ahhh ... the appeal to authority

the problem with this is even smart people in positions of authority say stupid things and this is a case of that

one point is his assumption that terrorists take politics personally and therefore would personally target policy makers ... while it is true the president of a country would be an iconic symbol of a nation all the rest are mere players with little political significance in a terror plot, particularly now since none are in power ... for long distance terror applications dramatic is the key word ... think twin towers, airplane blown out of sky, white house demolished, etc, note in each case no one particular person is targeted

now for the so called sting ops, it is true that the last administration actually concocted phony ops encouraging would be perps into being more stupid than they really were ... however the current op involving Yeman's AQ was actually more on target in a proactive way ... the Yemanese didn't need to be duped as they were and probably are still currently active in fomenting and exporting terror ... infiltration and volunteering to implement a plan designed by Yemanese is hardly a sting in the manner of the Ft Dix geniuses

Roberts' conclusion is unfortunately based on some erroneous premises.
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#222739 - 05/16/12 01:12 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: rporter314]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
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Originally Posted By: rporter314

ahhh ... the appeal to authority

Ahhh ... the appeal to the argumentum ad hominem !

Attack the distinguished Mr. Roberts personally, rather than the cogent points which he makes!
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#222747 - 05/16/12 02:44 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: numan]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4788
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
argumentum ad hominem ... the cogent points

other than to mention smart people say dumb things, the rest of my post is directed to Roberts' "points" ... i guess they would be cogent if they had some validity, but i think i demonstrated that not to be the case

perhaps you can make his case with a real argument?
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without equality there is no liberty

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#222750 - 05/16/12 03:20 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: numan]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
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Well, for one thing, you write :

Originally Posted By: rporter314
now for the so called sting ops, it is true that the last administration actually concocted phony ops encouraging would be perps into being more stupid than they really were ...

...suggesting that this type of entrapment was all a matter of the past, in the Bush administration, and then you drag in a red herring about Yemen, when in fact, the most recent example of blatant CIA entrapment and provocation was mentioned just a few days ago, RIGHT HERE, ON CAPITOL HILL BLUE
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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#222753 - 05/16/12 04:03 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: numan]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 4788
Loc: Highlands, Tx
first the definition entrapment: "conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit"

Quote:
this type of entrapment was all a matter of the past

can you point to a single case during this administration of entrapment? maybe i missed something

Quote:
a red herring about Yemen, when in fact, the most recent example of blatant CIA entrapment and provocation

red herring? ... better read it again as i specifically mentioned the distinction between entrapment and what happened in yemen ...

let me point out the distinction again ... using the ft dix terrorists as an example ... some folks not trying to blow stuff up ran into an agent provocateur who convinced them to blow stuff up vs some folks in yemen who were actively pursuing terrorism and had previously designed and implemented acts of terrorism were infiltrated and an agent who volunteered for a suicide job i.e. he did not have to convince anyone of anything

not my problem you can't tell the difference

but where is your argument?
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without equality there is no liberty

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#222954 - 05/18/12 08:07 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: numan]
Ted Remington Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
numan:

You are now citing yourself!

The problem was it was only your opinion that the "recent example" was entrapment.
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#226937 - 06/27/12 04:02 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: numan]
Lillibet Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2262
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
What has struck me about these "terrorist plots" taken down by law enforcement is that almost all have been egged on by the law enforcement agents. At the climactic moment, the law enforcement agent swoops in, after suggesting the material to be used, means, method and strategy, then provides the stuff needed to carry out the plot. This is a common MO for each and every part of the plots. Some have been indicted and tried for plots that none could have carried out, such as a Florida group whose target was the Sears tower, but they didn't have enough money for boots, and they really only wanted boots, and never intended to leave Florida in any event. The Sears Tower remains in Illinois.

Entrapment can be in the eye of the beholder, with the judicial system having narrowed its definition to virtually exclude much common sense when jurors are asked to find it. Common sense being so uncommon these days, entrapment is often not hammered home by the defense counsel charged with defending those 'dastardly gangs of terrorists' -- groups that required up to four years of work to bring them beyond new boots to targets the group had never even thought of considering. If they are so intent, why does it take four years, hundreds of thousands in law enforcement dollars, just to get a group doing what the law enforcement people want them to do.

The thing is, almost all of these indictments for bad acts require a Fed acting as the agent provacateur. That issue alone should cause people to pause when throwing around all those claims of terrorists behind every bush, bramble and corner. One has a better chance of being struck by lightning than being involved, not even killed, as a victim of terrorism.

Yet, none of the "big guys" seem to be at all fearful of terrorists in their personal conduct. I agree with Mr. Roberts. If you read over the writings of Mr. Roberts, he brings memories of Smedley Butler to mind. Butler is famous for his "war is a racket" opinion. Still true today, our current war on a tactic is still a racket. There haven't been attacks warranting the measures imposed on us, whether security searches or any of the scanners at airports. Those things were brought in after 'foiled plots.'

Winners in this war seem to be former DHS heads, scanner makers, and breathless newscasters demanding the head of already dead 'evildoers,' with their heads on whatever suffices for a pike, these days.
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#226938 - 06/27/12 04:17 PM Re: The Case of the Missing Terrorists [Re: Lillibet]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
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"And now for the rest of the story...." wink

Originally Posted By: Lillibet
What has struck me about these "terrorist plots" taken down by law enforcement is that almost all have been egged on by the law enforcement agents. At the climactic moment, the law enforcement agent swoops in, after suggesting the material to be used, means, method and strategy, then provides the stuff needed to carry out the plot. This is a common MO for each and every part of the plots.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools -- Herbert Spencer

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