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#227096 - 06/28/12 09:16 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Quote:
That's a start, but you are blending the manipulated with the manipulators
The Republican Party is made up of such a mishmash of conflicting types of conservatism, all of which are trying to manipulate the others into agreeing with them and voting for them or against whatever it is that they don't like. And added all together they don't like much of anything.
In fact I can't honestly recall the last time republicans came out in favor of anything. Mr. Buchanan would even have me believe they were against the war in Iraq yet were called unpatriotic. It seems to me that mostly it was us Liberal types who were offended by that war and called unpatriotic America Haters for our troubles. Buchanan seems to be revising things to suit his own fantasies. Maybe a few Rebuplicans voted against the war, I suppose I could Google it...and maybe they were Paleocons, like Mr.B. Maybe they were even called haters like I was. But to my notion it just goes to show that paleocons had no influence then and have lost what they might have once had and the Neopublicans, whether they be neocons, christocons, AiPACcons or whatevercons, they're all just manipulating the hell out of each other and making themselves look silly in the process.
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#227100 - 06/28/12 09:47 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: Greger]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Gregor 156 members of the house and senate voted against the Iraq war resolution
Iraq War Vote in 2002: 156 Congress Me...out.com Guide


The Project for the New American Century was the foundational document for the Neocon agenda. Members were William Kristol, Rumsfeld, Cheney and many others.
PNAC Neocon members of the Bush Administration


Edited by Ozymanithrax (06/29/12 02:36 PM)
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#227104 - 06/28/12 11:17 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: Ozymanithrax]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Much as I suspected:
Quote:
In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent who courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq


Quote:
Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Re[resentatives in voting NAY, on October 11, 2002, to the unprovoked use of force against Iraq


That's a total of seven (7) Republican Congressmen.
Buchanan writes:
Quote:
When some on the right opposed the invasion of Iraq as an unwise and unnecessary war, National Review denounced them as “unpatriotic.”

He says it as though there were a significant number...pffffffft. Lotta Neocons and a few Democrats cowed by Republican power and corruption. Neoconservatism crosses party lines though so I'll bet "some" of the Democrats were Neocons too.
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#227141 - 06/29/12 01:03 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: issodhos]
numan Offline
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Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 10853
Loc: What! Me Worry?
'
Issodhos, what you wrote about Neo-Conservatives simply means that they are totalitarians.

Since you appear to regard their supposedly left-wing "rivals" also as supporters of totalitarianism, I think you should agree with me that the United States is a government of totalitarians, by totalitarians, for totalitarians --- formed so that the People shall perish from the Earth. · · wink


Edited by numan (06/29/12 02:42 PM)
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#227217 - 06/29/12 11:47 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: issodhos]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
It is a mistake to think that Pat Buchanan -- and for that matter others who hold a paleo-conservative political philosophy -- is somehow new to his opposition to the various military adventures since the end of the cold war. But, it is true that they are not the dominant force on what is referred to as the Right.

It should also be understood it was cold war liberals that formed the ideology of neoconservatism. As Buchanan pointed out, there are fundamental differences between the two. Unfortuately, NeoCons are currently holding sway over the general mob movement that I describe as the modern 'conservative' movement (which, like its counterpart, the modern 'liberal' movement, is made up largely of politically ignorant, rather unprincipled, and easily manipulated followers). And so it goes.
Yours,
Issodhos
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#227226 - 06/30/12 10:07 AM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: issodhos]
Greger Offline
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Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Reading though The Political Positions of Pat Buchanan I can see why you find him so fascinating. There appears to be little difference between Paleocons and Paleolibs. We are generally in agreement regarding the current military action in the Middle East, but as near as I can tell we have no other common ground to stand on. That may be because I am "politically ignorant, rather unprincipled, and easily manipulated" but I prefer to think it is because I have Progressive views with an eye towards reality rather than the paleo desire for an alternate reality that did not and will not come to pass.
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#227229 - 06/30/12 10:46 AM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: issodhos]
Sandune Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 1967
I like to think back to my teens and there are a few of you here who were teens at the same time period. I noticed a terrible divide in those early 1940s that spread the horrors of anti-Semitism, Racism, homophobia that seemed to go away once the draft became the way America fought wars. Could it be that the draft made all young American males united against something that went unmentioned? It was a time when the Birch Society bloomed as a Paradise for some and a hell for the rest of us. The dedication that the Birch Society had to bring Jesus Christ into every level of our lives from our pre-primary schools all the way through the Air Force Academy loomed as a threat to all of us who worked for the equality for all Americans.

It took the Birch Society to finally label my mother’s side of the family as a growing group of such bigotry that my only desire was to leave home at the first opportunity. In my Senior year in High School I decided not to go to college as is meant coming home during all holidays and putting up with the usual anti-Semitic diatribe that was now blending into a hatred of all things Japanese. How could a growing family of “Christians” spend their waking hours hating Jews with such an emotionally-damaging cancer that I took to books rather than the reality of this crap. It wasn’t just my family as one of my best friends refused to invite me to her 21st birthday party because I was dating a young man from France who everyone thought was Jewish. He was a fun-loving actor and ended up directing plays until the booze finally killed him.

I remember meeting Pat Buchanan many times during those years and found him to be so wrong in his attitude of white purity that only grew more offensive over the years. Did he not realize how close to Hitler he was? I remember many letters I wrote for others talking about getting rid of the Separation of Church and State as it would take a complete breakdown before America could accept Jesus Christ as the religious leader of America. Bush did this with one stroke of issuing federal grants to the churches and it killed my interest in the GOP from that moment on. I did some arguments with Issodhos on another forum and figured he was on the side of a Christian America and nothing he would write from that moment on would have any value for me.

I look at the human soul as the possibility of making the correct choices in how we treat others. In my world there is no afterlife unless there is a world on another planet. It isn’t worth the time or effort to worry about it. This belief in God has turned many highly educated humans into developing a lazy brain where they are vulnerable to every silly superstition that is thrown out as a voice of authority.

I believe that if humans read more of the philosophers and watched less television, we might be able to elect better representatives into office. In 2012 we have an abundance of religious House members who are programmed to kill off Islam for the growth of the Christian nations. It’s all there on Fox News and financed by the Koch brothers. Pat Buchanan is just one more Catholic who believes in laws issued from the government to tell us all what not to do. How are we supposed to know what to do without Jesus Christ?

Pat and Shelley Buchanan had no children and I always wondered if this was their choice as they had nothing to use in their parental training programs. To a Catholic, there are no instincts to follow. There is no right over wrong just words from Jesus to follow.
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#227280 - 06/30/12 05:23 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: Sandune]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Sandy, Buckley purged the John Birch Society form the Repbulican Party in the early 60's, just as he purged Ayne Rand and objectivism in the 50's from main stream conservative thought. . Those to philosophies, as mutually exclusive they seem, are hopelessly intertwined in Conservativism and appear to me to be part of the reason behind that crack up. Conservatism isn't what my grandfather followed and has not been for a long time.


Edited by Ozymanithrax (06/30/12 09:21 PM)
_________________________
“If you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated." Saul Alinskey

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#227305 - 06/30/12 10:21 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: Ozymanithrax]
Greger Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 11848
Loc: Florida
Excellent article Ozy!
Quote:
Buckley purged Ayn Rand and her anti- Christian and morally bankrupt philosophy of Objectivism from mainstream conservatism. He dismissed anti-semitism from the movement by dismissing it from his publication. The conservative historian George Nash simply said, "Much of the history of American conservatism after 1955 is the history of the individuals associated with the magazine William F. Buckley Jr. founded."

Without Buckley to lead them it appears that "Modern Conservatives" are quickly backsliding. Buchanan being a leader of the Regressive Movement. I don't necessarily agree with Buckley on many issues but I'm not a Conservative by any stretch of the imagination. But the "crack-up of the right" is happening because they do not have anyone to pull them together, to discard the parts that aren't working and to move forward rather than backward.


Edited by Greger (06/30/12 10:28 PM)
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#227308 - 06/30/12 10:41 PM Re: Behind the crack-up of the right [Re: Greger]
Ozymanithrax Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1343
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Greger
Excellent article Ozy!
Without Buckley to lead them it appears that "Modern Conservatives" are quickly backsliding. Buchanan being a leader of the Regressive Movement.

Buckley made Conservativism into a centrist and center right political philosophy with a broad appeal that dominated the las 30 years of the 20th century. Even Carter and Clinton were Conservative Democrats rather than real liberals like FDR, Truman, or Johnson, and Obama's signature achievement, the ACA, is a Conservative program designed by Conservatives. The mandate, the most reviled idea, was conceived and birthed by the Heritage Foundation, Old Bill Buckley's close friend.

Obama, in many ways, is a Conservative of the same stripe as William Buckley. The current Democratic party has moved far from socialism, that it shares a majority of idea and policies of Buckley's conservative movement. If people really talk to the few real liberals that exist in America today, they would find that their biggest complaint about Obama. He isn't a liberal he is a Conservative.
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