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#250733 - 02/05/13 03:10 PM Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 27583
Loc: CA USA
Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress

By DOUG THOMPSON - Capitol Hill Blue
February 4, 2013




As a gun owner who grew up in a family of hunters, I cannot ó and will not ó join the parade of whiners who think the answer to increasing gun violence is more laws outlawing ownership of weapons by law-abiding citizens.

The American government cannot ó and will not ó stop senseless murders by outlawing the sale of assault-style weapons or large capacity magazines.

Those who commit such crimes do so most often with weapons they illegally obtained. The current rush towards new gun laws came as a result of of the young man who killed elementary students and teachers at a small-town school in Connecticut. He used an assault-style weapon he stole from his mother.

Of course, in some cases, the murderers used weapons they obtained legally through the system, but in too many cases because they were mental cases who escaped detection.

Which bring us to the one idea of increased government action that may have merit ó a tightening of investigations of those who obtain such weapons. But while that might stop an incident or two, it will not bring an end to gun-related violence by criminals and criminals are still the ones who used weapons to take the most lives of others.

Increasing the restrictions of gun purchases by law-abiding citizens will not put an end to gun violence by those who routinely break the law. As long as the American justice system allows criminals to escape serious punishment for breaking the law the problem will continue.

The irony of the gun control debate is that ó in the end ó the final decision on whether or not the government will exercise more questionable restrictions on whether or not law-abiding citizens can exercise their right to own weapons of their choice will be made by a government body composed of routine law breakers: the Congress of the United States.

Various members of the House and Senate have long records of skirting the law. The current Congress includes members with records of spousal abuse, writers of bad checks, opportunists who have revealed classified information for personal or political gain, serials liars, adulterers and practitioners of illegal political and/or business practices.

Want examples? Democratic Congressman Jim Moran of Alexandria has a record of spousal abuse and involvement in bar fights. The personal fortune of former Presidential candidate and longtime Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona comes from an liquor business tied to organized crime.

The list goes on and on. A few years ago, Capitol Hill Blue found that in the then-current Congress, 29 members had been arrested for spousal abuse, seven had been charged with fraud, 19 had written bad checks and many others had bankrupted business or defrauded partners or associates.

So how can we trust a collection of crooks, con-artists and thieves to come up with a solution for ending violence by criminals?

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#250735 - 02/05/13 04:01 PM Re: Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress [Re: Scoutgal]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 598
With little research being done and actively thwarted by pro gun concerns I find a lot of this opinion in place of fact. The notion that pro gun interest do NOT want gun violence researched smells fishy to me.
Having spent time abroad, there is a noticeable difference in gun violence rates that translates to a palpable positive feeling in your daily life. Knowing that you abode in a society that has a much lower chance for you to be shot gives you piece of mind and a sense of perspective than does attacking representatives shortcomings or transgressions.
How do our murder rates with guns stack against similar countries that are more restrictive on gun ownership?
Waddya mean the govmint wont fund research in this field? Why not?
Oh right.......


Edited by chunkstyle (02/05/13 04:03 PM)

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#250738 - 02/05/13 05:30 PM Re: Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress [Re: Scoutgal]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 27583
Loc: CA USA
I am not happy with the way Congress and most other elected officials operate. But Doug, you are using that as a diversion to real problem of gun violence in this country. I don't want to take guns away, but I do not want the ease and availability that is the core of the NRA(read: gun manufacturers' Lobbying arm-and part of the problem as to why our elected officials are crooks) platform. To think that the answer is to turn every home, business and school into a military arsenal is like saying the way to stop alcoholism is to drink more alcohol. Obviously our present day rules are not working.

I see nothing wrong with universal backround checks(UBC) and a waiting period of 15 days. The UBCs can be formulated after the AFIS database and other felon databases currently used by law enforcement. It might catch every single mentally ill person and/or felon, but it can go a long way. Require that all guns and ammo be kept in a gun safe, especially with children and mentally unstable family members living in the home. Require that each person using a gun show that he or she has passed a gun safety test. Require private sellers and gun show sellers to follow all the above rules.

Even allowing for AR-15s, Tech 9s and Uzis, Do you honestly think that if the government wants to kill us, that those will stop drones, tanks, RPGs, ICBMs, fighter planes, tomahawk missiles, radar-targeting and nuclear weapons and all the other fire power that is at the government's disposal? That is naive and living in a fantasy world.
_________________________
milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#250745 - 02/05/13 08:31 PM Re: Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress [Re: Scoutgal]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6078
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Apparently the NRA provided a crazy koolaid IV drip during Doug's recuperation.

Quote:
the answer to increasing gun violence is more laws outlawing ownership of weapons by law-abiding citizens

I have yet to read of anyone proposing a law abrogating law abiding citizens the right to own a firearm. This is basic NRA paranoia 101.

Quote:
The American government cannot ó and will not ó stop senseless murders by outlawing the sale of assault-style weapons or large capacity magazines

This is the LaPierre argument. Since no law can stop the violence we should not write law. By extension we should nullify all laws that anyone has broken in the last 10 minutes since none of those laws has stopped the crimes.

As a thought, if all assault rifles and high capacity clips were outlawed, there would be no mass murders using those weapons.

Quote:
Those who commit such crimes do so most often with weapons they illegally obtained

Interesting ... now if there were no such weapons to obtain illegally ... then ... what?

Quote:
the murderers used weapons they obtained legally through the system, but in too many cases because they were mental cases who escaped detection

The reason anyone could obtain any weapon is a direct result of the NRA PR campaign to ensure every man, woman, and child has a gun in their hands. It is perfectly legal for a cartel gun runner to buy $300k worth of rifles. The sole purpose of those weapons is to enforce illegal activities. The NRA is complicit in that activity.

Quote:
Increasing the restrictions of gun purchases by law-abiding citizens will not put an end to gun violence by those who routinely break the law

Those who break the law have nothing to do with those who obey the law. It is a fallacious comparison. Those who routinely break the law will always routinely break the law.

On the other hand increasing regulations which are aimed at enduring law a biding citizens can obtain a firearm is not a restriction on their right to own a weapon. A restriction would be that Doug can not buy a firearm because he lives in Virginia. Even after all the checks, it still does not address the very real probability that a person who wants to buy a firearm is irresponsible and would allow his weapon to be used by children, or waves it around, allows it to be stolen, etc. There are no laws which prohibit stupidity.

Quote:
The irony of the gun control debate ... the Congress of the United States

This is a distraction and adds nothing to the debate.

I recommend breathing some nice clean Virginia air reconsider your position and repost with real arguments.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#250767 - 02/06/13 12:50 PM Re: Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress [Re: Scoutgal]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15253
I'm disappointed in the high level of talking-point canards and woeful lack of substance (read accuracy) in Doug's opening tirade. Many assertion are made without factual basis - and, in fact, refuted by some of the internally inconsistent statements (e.g. "those who commit such crimes do so with illegally obtained weapons" Really? Any facts to support this assertion? And then the whopper that followed that the gun used in the massacre was "stolen" from his mother. Seriously? We're supposed to accept that as an accurate description of the circumstances?). I didn't know that Wayne LaPierre was ghost-writing on CHB.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#250792 - 02/07/13 04:19 AM Re: Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress [Re: Scoutgal]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12501
Loc: Whittier, California
I don't want to take anyone guns away and I don't think the problem can be fixed by weapons bans or any law which punishes the law abiding gun owner.

However, I DO find it ironic that my 17 year old son has to submit to more of a background check to rent a video game that has COMPUTER ANIMATED guns in it than he would to buy a REAL gun, and that kinda puts a fine point on things.

If we're going to enact some kind of regulation on a kid's video game, then let us at least think of trying to find a way to fix the broken system which is currently in place. Close the loopholes and make some kind of common sense reasonable effort to design a sensible process for buying guns that anyone can use and understand.

It IS silly to think that somehow we can get rid of guns.
It will never happen, there are three hundred million of them floating around. Just the cost of chasing them all down would nearly bankrupt us in the process and we'd never get em all. Like I said, it's silly.

And for some strange reason, people in other countries own guns too, but they don't do what so many nutcases do over here despite the fact that guns in other countries work much the same way, put in bullets, pull trigger, bang!

We can fix this.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#250819 - 02/07/13 10:56 PM Re: Want to curb crime? Letís outlaw Congress [Re: Scoutgal]
AustinRanter Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 3643
Loc: Austin, Texas
I would like to see numbers on suicide gun deaths vs other types of gun related deaths and compare those with total number of related deaths.
_________________________
Turn on ANY brand of political machine - and it automatically goes to the "SPIN and LIE CYCLE" wink

Yours Truly - Gregg



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