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#259027 - 07/03/13 05:44 PM Egypt - U.S.A. problem
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1206
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Egypt has a problem. They elected a guy who represented the Muslim Brotherhood and then decided to unelect him when he behaved exactly as advertised and started to insist everybody in the country behave as the brotherhood understands good Muslims behave. The man got elected because the other side could not decide who to run against the brotherhood so they ran between 7 and 15 candidates. This so fractured the vote that the brotherhood won. The problem is that the brotherhood seems to have been the ONLY politically active group which was also organized and ready to run their candidate(s)

Now, here, in the good old USA, we have a slightly different problem with, almost, the same results. We used to have two political parties and just about everybody belonged to one or the other (Democrat or Republican). Each party had a party platform and and the candidates towed the party line or they got throwed out. It worked, we became an empire under that system. Now, however, its a bit different. Instead of almost everybody belonging to one party, or the other, we have situation wherein independents outnumber the total of all Democrats and and Republicans combined. The parties have done such an incredibly bad job of doing their jobs that they BOTH have lost most of their members! I think the Republicans have done the worst job, and have actually lost more members than the Democrats, although one must give credit where credit is due and the Democrats are certainly only second by a bit.

The result is that we actually have people calling themselves Democrats which vote with the Republicans and, to a lesser degree, Republicans that vote with Democrats (the Republicans have done a much better job kicking out non-true believers). Anyway, it seems that candidates in either party need not hew to the party line/platform. I have asked friends what they think each party stands for, which party they belong to, etc. and I have found that nobody seems to know what either party platform stands for and hasn't for several years. In other words the parties have lost their way and, obviously, don't have a clue how to change that. There are hopes, always, for a 3rd party to emerge but I don't see that happening, especially the left center although the right does have enough monied to actually do the 3rd party thing although I think they already own the Republicans anyway.

So, what does all this have to do with Egypt? The answer is pretty simple. The Egyptians went into their democracy completely fractured. We, on the other hand went into our democracy somewhat organized and are now working, apparently very hard, to get as fractured as the Egyptians currently are. In other words it would seem that we are in the same boat except that we have not yet started to club one another and force the army in and 'help'.

Here is the crux. The Egyptian army just took over to 'save' the Egyptian democracy. They might even pull it off. Does ANYBODY believe that our own completely (on the fact of it) politicized military is capable of stepping in should things, here, get out of hand? Does ANYBODY believe that our politicized military is capable of even vaguely doing the right thing?

The only solution I can see is if our existing parties start to actually do their job. This means that each needs to create a really big umbrella to get members and then keep those members happy. They have to give up their narrow views, single topic stances, etc. They have to start doing what they did, with some success, for a very long time, instead of the modern political party that goes something like; we have a plank but its ok to ignore it. When you serve as an elected you can vote any damned way you want to keep your job. When serving just do whatever you please because we really don't care. (I suspect this applies more to the Democrats than the Republicans as the Republicans have, again, pretty much, run off anybody that is not a true believer (in any sense you can think of).

Anyway................


Edited by jgw (07/03/13 06:03 PM)

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#259029 - 07/03/13 06:27 PM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 10485
Loc: Downey, California
Nope, I am convinced that the military would install a dictatorship and enforce martial law.
The USA would quickly become a theocratic version of Franco's Spain almost overnight.
_________________________
"Our options for change range from basically what we have plus a little more Hayek,
to what we have plus a little more Keynes. Why?"

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#259030 - 07/03/13 07:06 PM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
" Instead of almost everybody belonging to one party, or the other, we have situation wherein independents outnumber the total of all Democrats and and Republicans combined."

Citation please.
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#259035 - 07/03/13 07:54 PM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4249
Loc: North San Diego County
OTOH, if the American military took over and then applied their own economic model to every aspect of our society then we would all effectively be Socialists: All houses and apartments would be assigned "living quarters" or barracks. Everybody would get a small stipend but enjoy large subsidies like free housing, free meals, free medical care, uniforms, and transportation. All property would be owned by the government, and assigned for the most productive use by somebody given that responsibility. And we would all have assigned jobs and a command structure.

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#259040 - 07/03/13 08:43 PM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35960
Loc: Bay Area, California
Let's see what the Wingnuts are writing, shall we? Because, their take on issues is always spot-on.

Quote:
peruse:

The people of Egypt have been able to do what the people of the United States have not – get rid of the muslim brotherhood member who runs their country.
HObama’s response to those peoples’ freedom? – Order the “appropriate U.S. Government agencies” to cut off support to Egypt!
If this tyrant’s plan to destroy the United States by decimating its economy, gutting its military, opening its borders like a floodgate, relegating its people to a welfare state, using all agencies’ technologies to gather information on citizens who might resist tyranny and diminish the country’s image and standing in the world is not now blatantly obvious, then those with their heads in the sand have their backsides appropriately positioned for the kicking that’s coming.


Quote:
Guest

Good jobby the people of Egypt. Why does our government want to support a dictator like morsi. May be our own leaders are acting like dictators these days.


Quote:
WealthSpread_Mih

that's great news, actually. It can happen anywhere. any impostor dictator could be booted out. Of course, not here. We are a country of laws... like in New Black Panthers with billy clubs.

...as ususal, Wingnuts don't "get" the ramifications of their glee. Morsi was democratically elected. Protesters wanted him out. The military wanted him out. This is what known in the intelligence community as a coup de' tat.

Because the government of Egypt had many members of The Muslim Brotherhood in it, the silly Wingnuts are happy to rid any government of Muslims at any cost - democratically elected or not.

Therefore, Wingnuts really don't support a democratically elected government as evident by the posts on the above cited Wingnut blog.
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#259042 - 07/03/13 09:10 PM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3319
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Party discipline is at a high. Why are no bills passed in Congress? Look at the vote for any bill in the last two Congresses and you'll be hard pressed to find more than a handful of votes crossing lines on significant bills. Look at the votes from the 60s - the 00s were crossover votes were used by Democrats to foist Socialism on the country against the will of a sizable section of their party: the so called 'Dixiecrats', who are more aptly described as Real Americans. To avoid more Socialist destruction, the Republican Party embraced all Real Americans and turned a cold shoulder to the RINO Fifth Columnists. A party of True Believers is not only morally superior to wishy-washy Socialism, it is more enduring and powerful.
_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberus Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#259055 - 07/04/13 08:21 AM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Originally Posted By: jgw
Here is the crux. The Egyptian army just took over to 'save' the Egyptian democracy. They might even pull it off. Does ANYBODY believe that our own completely (on the fact(sic) of it) politicized military is capable of stepping in should things, here, get out of hand? Does ANYBODY believe that our politicized military is capable of even vaguely doing the right thing?"


Upon what do you rely for your statement that our military is completely politicized?

Also waiting (perhaps in vain) for an answer to my request for a citation to your allegation that the number of independents in the US exceed the number of Republican and Democratic voters combined.

It is very difficult to make rational conclusions based on premises that are false.

Your premises include the preponderance of independent voters and the politicization of the US Military. If you cannot support those premises I fail to understand how you can draw any rational conclusions.
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Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#259087 - 07/04/13 11:46 PM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35960
Loc: Bay Area, California
Let me just put on my David Brooks hat and point out that however popular this move to oust Morsi has turned out, it is a military coup against a (maybe crappy) elected leader. Then again, the ousting of Mubarak was basically a military coup against a definitely crappy unelected leader. So, what the hell, Egypt?

Now, what does the Stupidest Man On the Internet think about all of this Egyptian kerfuffle? Jim Hoft is cheering for the Egyptian Army and hailing the crowds as “pro-democracy demonstrators,” or at least he is for now, because Morsi is an "Islamist." Pehraps, maybe, Hoft didn’t notice that the anti-Morsi demonstrators are...also Muslim? Or that Hoft didn't notice that it was the Egyptian Military that oversaw the transition from Mubarak to Morsi? Still, an army is The Military, so you know that Hoft has to have a conservative boner for them, right? Give Hoft a week, and he’ll be lumping all Egypt-people together as dangerous Islamists once again, which is what he does best.
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#259089 - 07/05/13 06:14 AM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
Ted Remington Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 4890
Don't forget Anwar Sadat, Rick. The military oversaw that transition too.
_________________________
Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.

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#259094 - 07/05/13 09:43 AM Re: Egypt - U.S.A. problem [Re: jgw]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 35960
Loc: Bay Area, California
Sadat was bmt (before my time) and, even though I have heard of him, I did forget about him. blush

Basically, politics for me started in 1981 with the election of Reagan. I'm good for that time period, forward. smile
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