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#261458 - 08/25/13 12:17 PM Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners
Spag-hetti Offline
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Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1330
Loc: Middle, USA
I wonder if that would work. Victims of gun violence could collect damages to pay for their medical bills or funeral expenses. Gun owners who act irresponsibly would have to pay higher premiums. Plus premiums could be based on the caliber and clip size of the weapon, as well as the ... oh, I don't know ... a score on a test by the owner, or information gleaned from the background check.

I'm sure the NRA would support the idea since they endorse/market a liability policy.

Apparently, the NRA is against a database of gun owners, unless it is their database. So maybe they would only be in favor of the NRA insurance policy.
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#261467 - 08/25/13 01:19 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: Spag-hetti]
issodhos Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti


I'm sure the NRA would support the idea since they endorse/market a liability policy.


I think an obvious distinction is the difference between mandatory insurance and voluntary insurance, Spag.

As to a fed database and the private marketing database referenced, it would probably be the difference between Mrs. X owning firearm serial number ####### vs Mrs. X interested in and maybe owning a firearm of some sort.
Yours,
Issodhos
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#261468 - 08/25/13 01:38 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: Spag-hetti]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
It sems to me that this approach is a reflexive response that would not do very much abut the "problems"

One problem is thugs with guns. These people would not get insurance in any case.

One problem is accidental shootings from whatever origin. These incidents happen with guns from all types of owners in a mostly randomized way. I suppose that insurance might be marginally helpful in some of these circumstances. I think that this is not the main problem that concerns people in favor of more regulation.

Finally, you have accidents that are not so randomized. These could come from irresponsible gun owners who might for instance leave loaded guns lying around, Insurance might help the victims of such accidents. But if a person is an irresponsible gun owner, then they are also not liklely to carry insurance.


I suppose that insurance could be a mandatory charge attached to all gun sales.... like a sales tax. But that would be like pre-paying a lifetime auto insurance policy at the time of purchase.... it would make guns prohibitively expensive. Which I do not oppose, except from a practical point of view that it would never become an enacted law.... so what is the point of even starting down that path.
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"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
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#261469 - 08/25/13 01:41 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: Spag-hetti]
rporter314 Online   content
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5073
Loc: Highlands, Tx
J Scalia;s amendment to the Constitution trumps all other considerations i.e. it doesn't matter how many innocent human victims there are, since the "real" victim is the cold gun metal.

The NRA doesn;t care about responsibility and J Scalia insured that is not a consideration when he wrote his amendment to the Constitution.
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#261470 - 08/25/13 01:43 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos

As to a fed database and the private marketing database referenced, it would probably be the difference between Mrs. X owning firearm serial number ####### vs Mrs. X interested in and maybe owning a firearm of some sort.
Yours,
Issodhos



OK, you have pointed out a distinction. But what is the difference? What is so much more egregious about a database that records more specific information like serial numbers?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#261471 - 08/25/13 01:55 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: issodhos]
Spag-hetti Offline
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Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1330
Loc: Middle, USA
Quote:
Issodhos explained:
I think an obvious distinction is the difference between mandatory insurance and voluntary insurance, Spag.


Yes. If there were no distinction, then what I proposed would not be a change in policy. And I DO think that the NRA would still gladly hawk their policy if people were required to buy it.

As to how the government or the NRA might use a database, I guess we just have to trust them to tell us. But the fact remains that only the NRA has one.
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#261477 - 08/25/13 04:19 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: Spag-hetti]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 13200
Apparently, unfettered data collection by corporate entites (and the NRA most assuredly is one) is not a privacy concern. It only becomes an issue when the government obtains the same information from publicly available sources (notwithstanding the fact that the government operates with constraints that the NRA and other corporate entities do not suffer under). I am rather sick of this faux concern, which is really just a manifestation of a political viewpoint, just as "voter ID" has almost no correlation with actual voter fraud. The voter ID laws are the fraud, just as the NRA is a greater threat to personal liberty than government intrusion. Factually-speaking, that is, although I know that has little relevance to the discussion, once gun ownership is the issue.
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#261479 - 08/25/13 04:39 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: Spag-hetti]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti



As to how the government or the NRA might use a database, I guess we just have to trust them to tell us. But the fact remains that only the NRA has one.



Actually ,
Quote:
Nevertheless, the ATF Firearms Tracing System (FTS) contains hundreds of millions of firearm tracing and registration records, and consists of several databases:
1. Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address - increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.[9]

2. Suspect Guns. All guns suspected of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples[citation needed]), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms, and dealers with improper record keeping. May include guns observed by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere.[citation needed] Reported as 34,807 in 2010. [9]

3. Traced Guns. Over 4 million detail records from all traces since inception. [9]This is a registration record which includes the personal information of the first retail purchaser, along with the identity of the selling dealer.


Based on your article, the NRA database is a marketing database akin to Obama's campaign database. As a lobbyist, it's database would probably be put to the same use as the databases maintained by the DNC, RNC, NAACP, ALGORE-R-US, etc. What it apparently does not do -- and is apparently not its intent -- is tie a specific individual to a specific firearm.

So, other than discriminating against low-income Americans by attempting to financially hinder or prevent them from exercising their right to own and use a firearm, why are you advocating this racist policy?
Yours,
Issodhos



Edited by issodhos (08/25/13 04:41 PM)
Edit Reason: link
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"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#261482 - 08/25/13 05:29 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos

So, other than discriminating against low-income Americans by attempting to financially hinder or prevent them from exercising their right to own and use a firearm, why are you advocating this racist policy?
Yours,
Issodhos



So, You are saying that a law that more negatively impacts low income people is inherently racist?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#261483 - 08/25/13 05:31 PM Re: Mandatory Liability Insurance for Gun Owners [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11997
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos



Actually ,
Quote:
Nevertheless, the ATF Firearms Tracing System (FTS) contains hundreds of millions of firearm tracing and registration records, and consists of several databases:

Yours,
Issodhos


So, if I understand you correctly, the government already has all of this information in a database that they can easily access for good or evil?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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