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#265411 - 11/17/13 04:57 PM Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6363
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I'm ready to go at it - anybody got an example of a free market that we can analyze? I know Issodhos does... Iss, you wanta lead off? ThumbsUp
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#265431 - 11/18/13 06:22 AM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I always find the concept of a "free market" funny. It is, definitionally, an oxymoron. Once a "market" exists, it ceases to be "free" because it has to be governed by rules to be functional. The closest thing to a "free" market I can think of are the suqs and bazaars of the middle east. The exchanges, at least, are mostly unsupervised. Spent any time in a suq lately?
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#265435 - 11/18/13 08:29 AM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Seems like this free market topic is having trouble competing with the now increasingly "off-topic" discussion going on in the antibiotics topic!

I find this thing about local, more direct exchange markets to be quite interesting, since I like those markets. Why don't such direct exchange markets exist in larger contexts? Maybe it has something to do with the complexity that enters in when markets begin to exclude direct exchanges and begin to rely upon various forms of money, which has the purpose to facilitate indirect exchanges?

Money does play a role at the farmers market level, but other exchanges may also come into play - "I'll trade you four hours of cultivating for a basket of produce".

If you want to buy a car, however, you probably can't say to the Chrysler Corp., "I'll give you a year behind the desk for a Ram 2500 Quad Cab 4x4 today." That exchange is likely to have to go through a mind-bogglingly large scale series of manipulations by third and fourth and maybe fifth party transactions wherein the exchanges are murky, if not invisible, to the actual apparent truck deal participants.

Perhaps an element of potentially successful free markets is that the participants in the transaction have sole and direct control over the exchange?
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#265440 - 11/18/13 11:19 AM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I always find the concept of a "free market" funny. It is, definitionally, an oxymoron. Once a "market" exists, it ceases to be "free" because it has to be governed by rules to be functional. The closest thing to a "free" market I can think of are the suqs and bazaars of the middle east. The exchanges, at least, are mostly unsupervised. Spent any time in a suq lately?


We have them here also
They are called flea markets.
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#265441 - 11/18/13 11:28 AM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Seems like this free market topic is having trouble competing with the now increasingly "off-topic" discussion going on in the antibiotics topic!


Yes, I have just finished several postings on that thread. It is a tacit recognition of the irony that those who swoon over free markets seem uninterested in participating in a thread on the topic. Hmm


Edited by Ardy (11/18/13 12:04 PM)
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#265442 - 11/18/13 12:04 PM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll


I find this thing about local, more direct exchange markets to be quite interesting, since I like those markets. Why don't such direct exchange markets exist in larger contexts?


This is a topic I also raised in the anti-biotic thread.

There certainly are some charms to locally produced products. Farmer's markets are great.... but seldom a less expensive option. Try buying small producer meat, or eggs or milk. It may be better but you gotta pay a premium for it.

And of course for 6 months a year, the local produce is mostly nonexistent. In the good ol days, people learned how to get by until local produce became available again.... Hmm I am not sure why it is that people today do not also do this.... For the sake of avoiding intrusive government regulated markets that they despise.

You see, even when locally produced craft products are available, people mostly prefer to use regulated market places.

My wife makes craft jewelry. I think her product is quite good. It is unique and has the charm that mass produced jewelry lacks. It is not over priced. And still, most people prefer to buy a mass produced product, or name brands, in regulating market places. WHy is that? Hmm People seldom offer to barter anything in exchange for my wife's jewelry.... And I have never observed a farmer's market vendor engaged in bartering. Would a farmer exchange 10 pounds of tomatoes for a pair of ear rings, or a bracelet? Do the people who sell tomatoes exchange them in barter with the people who sell strawberries, or orchids, or crepes, or grass fed beef? Hmm

For all of the charms of escaping government regulation and mass produced products....
The undeniable fact is that people prefer to use money as a medium of exchange. And people mostly prefer standardized products sold in regulated markets.

They do not have this preference because they are afraid of the government. They do not behave in this manner because they are fond of intrusive government regulation. People have the choice of living outside the grid of regulation.

People have the choice to lead lives where the government would have little or no idea of their activities. People have these options... and mostly people do not see that the benefits of the free market off grid life exceed the costs.

This choice to participate in regulated markets is not made from fear.... No one is afraid of a government raid confiscating goods exchanged outside the regulated markets. It is not intrusive government that drives our current economic marketplace.

People DO HAVE A CHOICE. And mostly they prefer regulated markets. No matter what you or I or Iss think about this.... that is the fact.
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#265448 - 11/18/13 08:42 PM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6363
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ardy
People DO HAVE A CHOICE. And mostly they prefer regulated markets. No matter what you or I or Iss think about this.... that is the fact.

Bummer...
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#265449 - 11/18/13 10:22 PM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11705
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Ardy
People DO HAVE A CHOICE. And mostly they prefer regulated markets. No matter what you or I or Iss think about this.... that is the fact.

Bummer...


And, by the way, Ebay is among the largest market places of used goods. It is not regulated much by government. But that does not mean that it is a "free market." Ebay is regulated by Ebay. Ebay sets rules and regulations, it enforces those rules. And it levies taxes upon the transactions.

Amazon also has a lively business allowing the sale of used merchandise. They are like Ebay in enforcing rules and taxing transactions.

Farmer's markets and Flea markets also have their own regulations... and charge vendors.

Craig's list likely has the smallest regulatory overheads. On the other hand there is a consumer cost to this de-regulated market. Craig's list connects you with sellers, but you know nothing about the vendor. When you buy on Craig's list, you are entirely on your own. No regulatory overhead, no fees, and no guarantees. We might occasionally choose to do business this way. But most people, most of the time prefer a more structured market.... And do not feel burdened by the regulations and fees associated with providing that structure.
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#265452 - 11/18/13 11:09 PM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6363
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Persuasive talk, Ardy, but I have a good deal of confidence that iss can present a pretty persuasive case for just how a more free market approach could solve our difficulties.

There's been a lot of deep thinking that has been going on over at the Mises Institute that you may not be up to speed on.

I'm holding my breath for Isser's rebuttal.
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"If you would make a person happy, add not to their possessions but take from their desires"
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#265454 - 11/19/13 08:12 AM Re: Fun and objective analysis of a few isolated free markets [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 6363
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Here's a model of something, though I'm having trouble placing it in the context of Austrian Economic Theory:
Quote:
But what if we replaced our Hamiltonian economy with a Jeffersonian one? Or, put in other terms, what if we took as our model not an economy of unchecked growth, but one based on the natural laws of the watershed? By its very nature, a watershed is self-sufficient, symbiotic, conservative, decentralized, and diverse. It circulates its own wealth over and over. It generates no waste, and doesn’t “externalize” the cost of “production” onto other watersheds. In a watershed, all energy is renewable and all resource use is sustainable. The watershed purifies air and water, holds soil in place, enriches humus, and sequesters carbon. It represents both a metaphor and a model for an entirely new definition of economy, whereby our American system of exchange in the realms of wealth and energy is brought into line with the most important and inescapable economy of nature.
The End of the Illth
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