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#266322 - 12/11/13 02:13 AM US imperialism
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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In another thread it seemed that a poster was proposing US policy towards Syria as an example of US imperialism.

The free dictionary defines imperialism as.

Quote:
.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
]


Sorry I do not see it.

Actually I do not see Iraq as a vassal state, nor Kuwait, nor Afghanistan after the exit of the soviets. Not japan. Nor Germany. Not Korea. Not Serbia not Libya.

I think that if we were interested in establishing hegemony over these countries, we should have done a better job. And actually I think if that were our intent we could have done a better job.

But I am open to the evidence of hegemony
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#266331 - 12/11/13 12:14 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
Schlack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ardy
In another thread it seemed that a poster was proposing US policy towards Syria as an example of US imperialism.

The free dictionary defines imperialism as.

Quote:
.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
]


Sorry I do not see it.

Actually I do not see Iraq as a vassal state, nor Kuwait, nor Afghanistan after the exit of the soviets. Not japan. Nor Germany. Not Korea. Not Serbia not Libya.

I think that if we were interested in establishing hegemony over these countries, we should have done a better job. And actually I think if that were our intent we could have done a better job.

But I am open to the evidence of hegemony


I believe your difficulty is based upon an assumption that hegemony and vassal states are one and the same, and that hegenomy in itself is the definition of empire. Perhaps a more complete analysis of what an empire is would be the basis for discussion. As it is the lines of discussion have been drawn around hegemony.



not an empire? ahahahaha, should i post the list of military interventions since 1945 again?
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#266333 - 12/11/13 12:53 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I suppose Ireland has Imperial desires then, too. Currently, Ireland has troops deployed in 14 locations around the world, including Syria, Serbia, Kosovo and other hot spots, and was engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well. Irish Army. Coming from Irish stock myself I know that Irishmen make fearsome soldiers, as the American Civil War demonstrated. Celts spread their culture throughout Europe and even into Africa and Asia.

The reality is that the United States is really, really big. Its landmass stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific. It has a population of a third of a billion. It has the largest economy in the world (except on some days) World's largest economies. It's going to have an impact in the world, that is unavoidable. It is also true that it seeks to have political influence around the world. It has entered into hundreds of treaties with other nations. USDOS - Treaties in Force. It provides financial aid to hundreds as well. USAID. Being so large, and so influential, it has been involved in military conflicts in most of the decades of its existence and sacrificed millions of its own people outside of its own shores. None of that, none of that, demonstrates imperial ambitions.

Indeed, as Ardy notes, if we intend to be an imperial power, we sure go about it in strange ways - withdrawing from Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, the Phillipines.

Ardy has offered a definition of imperialism (which, by the way, has a common and universal understanding) with which you clearly disagree. Perhaps offering an alternative definition might move the discussion forward.


Edited by NW Ponderer (12/11/13 02:18 PM)
Edit Reason: Additional Links
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#266335 - 12/11/13 01:16 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11650
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Quote:
Interventionism is a key facet of imperialism. It is a key facet of US imperialism. ]


There is a difference between saying "a" key facet vs "the" key facet.



Intervention is a method that "can" be used as a means to achieve an maintain hegemony.
But it is not by itself hegemony.
The UN has "intervened" around the world but is not imperialist.


Which is not intended to deny that most interventions by. The us have our perceived interest as a motive. But every nation and every person pursues their own interests.

A sociopath pursues his own interests. But pursuing your own interest does not make you a sociopath


Edited by Ardy (12/11/13 01:21 PM)
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#266349 - 12/11/13 06:33 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
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Gentlemen. I suggest you both read Colossus by Niall Ferguson.

In military and economic terms the US is the most powerful empire in history. The failure to recognise that by the majority of its people is one of the main reasons it is still able to operate as such.
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#266351 - 12/11/13 08:05 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I appreciate the suggestion. I have issues with Niall Ferguson.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#266354 - 12/11/13 10:08 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Schlack]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11650
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: Schlack
Gentlemen. I suggest you both read Colossus by Niall Ferguson.

In military and economic terms the US is the most powerful empire in history. The failure to recognize that by the majority of its people is one of the main reasons it is still able to operate as such.


So for a moment let us suppose that the US did not and had never existed.... then someone else would be the richest and most powerful nation in history

Being rich and powerful does not make you imperialist. Heck, China was very rich and powerful for a very long time.... and not all that imperialist. ON a GDP per person basis the US does not even make it into the top five
wiki link

In any case, Schlack, you seem not to have defined the term "imperialist"
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#266355 - 12/11/13 10:17 PM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11650
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
By the way, since wealth is Schlack's criteria for who is an imperialist

It happens that the people of Ireland have a GDP per capita about 20% less then that of the USA... and as I understand it, Ireland wants to be richer still.... which is a sure sign that they are just imperialist wanna be's
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#266357 - 12/12/13 07:33 AM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
Schlack Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 9551
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: Ardy
By the way, since wealth is Schlack's criteria for who is an imperialist


I suppose I had better expound on the definition of empire, before more misinterprations as above are established as "fact".

I will get to it, and provide a considered and detailed definition, but it will take some time and headspace!

by the way I stated that economic power was one of the facets of empire, not a whole definition. Did i mention wealth at all?
_________________________
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)


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#266358 - 12/12/13 07:43 AM Re: US imperialism [Re: Ardy]
keysersoze Offline
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Registered: 12/01/11
Posts: 881
corporate and military cooperation for imperialist goals in Central and South America. Quite and illustrious history of that. Some still exists since we do have "protectorates."
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