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#266684 - 12/21/13 05:51 AM Why neo-isolationism is soaring
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Quote:
“Neo-isolationism is the direct product of foolish globalism. … Compared to people who thought they could run the universe, or at least the globe, I am neo-isolationist and proud of it.”
...snip...
The Bushes and Bill Clinton said no.

So we let the New World Order crowd have its run in the yard.
...snip...
A decade of bleeding with 8,000 U.S. dead, 40,000 wounded, $2 trillion sunk, Iraq and Libya disintegrating in tribal, civil and sectarian war, Afghanistan on the precipice, and al-Qaida no longer confined to Tora Bora but active in Pakistan, Libya, Iraq, Yemen and Syria.

While America was caught up in these wars, China swept past Britain, France, Germany and Japan to emerge as the second largest economy on earth.
...snip...
How can a nation as polarized morally and paralyzed politically as ours lead the world? It cannot. The people sense what the elites cannot see.

The American Century is over. Time to restore the republic.
LINK



Edited by issodhos (12/21/13 05:55 AM)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#266686 - 12/21/13 06:36 AM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: issodhos
Quote:

The American Century is over. Time to restore the republic.
LINK



Is this the death knell of American exceptionalism?

What ever the American people see or do not see, I did not see a whole lot of Republican support for this view in the recent primary.... other than ROn Paul, who went no where, and therefore has dubious claim to be expressing the center of american opinion on much of anything
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#266689 - 12/21/13 07:15 AM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581

The article was written by Pat Buchanan, Ardy, not Ron Paul. :-}
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#266691 - 12/21/13 07:33 AM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: issodhos]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Pat Buchanon.... there is a presidential candidate with a real lock on the american psyche
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#266695 - 12/21/13 03:35 PM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: issodhos]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6414
Loc: Highlands, Tx
i suppose you agree with him but his "argument" is absolutely the worst you have posted from Pat

my rejection of his claim is based on reality. We are a nation in the real world. We have the largest economy in the world. It therefore implies we are implicitly engaged by our mere presence in the world.

He argues that engagement implies military intervention, which can not logically be deduced from the context of economic tete a tete.

Sorry but that was Pat's weakest op-ed I have seen.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#266699 - 12/21/13 05:21 PM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: rporter314]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
i suppose you agree with him but his "argument" is absolutely the worst you have posted from Pat

my rejection of his claim is based on reality. We are a nation in the real world. We have the largest economy in the world. It therefore implies we are implicitly engaged by our mere presence in the world.

He argues that engagement implies military intervention, which can not logically be deduced from the context of economic tete a tete.



Hold on Rpter
Are you saying that US corporations are now multi-national entities with huge business interests around the world such that it is fairly absurd to propose that our nation could shrink back upon it's borders? And further that that these economic interests are seen as rather vital to the business community of our nation? And further that our government often acts in international relations to further tourism economic interests. And further that in the age of pervasive air travel as well as the availability of nuclear weapons and long range missles.... there is just no way that we can protect ourselves or our interests without engaging with the international community?

Because if all of that was true, then Pat Buchanon's op ed would be not much more that a heap of trite populist windbaggery
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#266702 - 12/21/13 06:28 PM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: Ardy]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6414
Loc: Highlands, Tx
i hate to disappoint you but i do resemble some or all of those comments








Edited by rporter314 (12/21/13 06:33 PM)
Edit Reason: the right hand & the left hand
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#266719 - 12/22/13 01:25 AM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Ardy

Hold on Rpter
Are you saying that US corporations are now multi-national entities with huge business interests around the world such that it is fairly absurd to propose that our nation could shrink back upon it's borders? And further that that these economic interests are seen as rather vital to the business community of our nation? And further that our government often acts in international relations to further tourism economic interests. And further that in the age of pervasive air travel as well as the availability of nuclear weapons and long range missles.... there is just no way that we can protect ourselves or our interests without engaging with the international community?

Because if all of that was true, then Pat Buchanon's op ed would be not much more that a heap of trite populist windbaggery


Goodness, Ardy, that sounds just like the neoconsevative's line. But then, neoconservatism did originate with cold-war leftists, after all. They do hate Buchanan -- perhaps more than Dems and Progs. :-)
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#266720 - 12/22/13 01:54 AM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: rporter314]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: rporter314
i suppose you agree with him but his "argument" is absolutely the worst you have posted from Pat

my rejection of his claim is based on reality. We are a nation in the real world. We have the largest economy in the world. It therefore implies we are implicitly engaged by our mere presence in the world.

He argues that engagement implies military intervention, which can not logically be deduced from the context of economic tete a tete.

Sorry but that was Pat's weakest op-ed I have seen.


Well Pi, since you imply that you are familiar enough with Buchanan to gauge the weakness of one article by him relative to other articles by him then you probably know that he is specifically opposed to military interventions and obligations that he thinks no longer serve America's vital interest -- not commercial, humanitarian, or diplomatic involvement with other peoples and nations.

Perhaps you disagree with him and think the string of military interventions By Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama were justified and successful (however it is that you may define successful), but I do not. I think he is right to say we should stop trying to run other nations and we should stop trying to push Wilson's "make the world safe for Democracy". I also agree that America's social fabric has been so shredded and disunited that we are no longer capable of engaging in such tripe.
Yours,
Issodhos
_________________________
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos

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#266769 - 12/22/13 10:07 PM Re: Why neo-isolationism is soaring [Re: issodhos]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6414
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Interesting i suppose ... Pat and I have fundamentally different perspectives but that does not preclude the possibility that we may agree on some issue.

Here is an example which both exemplifies and focuses on the difference.

A Deal With Iran — or War With Iran?
Pat starts from a ideological position of military non-intervention and develops a set of facts which will support his belief.

I start with Pat's facts and derive a conclusion which is identical to Pat's conclusion.

The poll cited however did not make clear that military intervention was the topic of the polling question. It was so ambiguous that I opted for a more general question. This is not a oner but it would appear that many Americans do in fact believe America should reduce any imprint in many areas, not just military.

Isolationism has been a long time foreign policy item among conservatives since Washington's presidency. In recent years it has resurfaced. Part of the re-emergance has to do with the abject failure of American Iraqi policy, which was predicated on misinformation and sold to the public. Surely that should have pricked Americans into re-thinking their foreign policy positions?

However, for those of us who have always considered Iraq to be bad policy we have been reduced to those who ideological grounds believe it, those who considered the evidence and found it wanting, and a few folks who after the fact reconsidered the ir original position and changed their mind. Most conservatives remain steadfast in their belief it was the right choice.

Foreign policy is a complex set of variables which only sometimes has predictable outcomes. Since 2003 we have been engaged militarily/politically in several operations which have had both good and bad results. Those with intractable ideologies would point to the poor results as their factual basis to remove our footprint from engagement in the global arena.

In the real world we are forced by circumstance to either participate or hide. Reality is a harsh mistress for whom we have no control; we do the best we can with what we have.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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