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#267040 - 12/29/13 04:26 PM SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Again, I am trying to quickly and succinctly frame the question here. As such we may need to adjust the topic based on the precise inputs of others ranters.


Edited by Ardy (12/29/13 04:27 PM)
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#267041 - 12/29/13 04:29 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
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Transferring comments from a previous thread to this new one for discussion

Originally Posted By: issodhos

SYG laws are generally constructed with two things in mind. 1) To protect the Justified and 2) Not provide an excuse for someone who unjustifiably uses deadly force."
Yours,
Issodhos
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#267042 - 12/29/13 04:34 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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So will the precise among us agree that the focus is upon the concept of "justifiable"

So we need to discuss what that is, if that goal is met by the laws, and whether that goal trumps all the potential and real blow-back implications.

I feel there are many points for discussion in the above, but would not want to pre-empt a precise clarification of what are the issues at hand.


Edited by Ardy (12/29/13 04:36 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#267045 - 12/29/13 05:03 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8215
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ardy

So will the precise among us agree that the focus is upon the concept of "justifiable"

Seems like precisely defining "justifiable" as "fearing that someone is going to cause me great harm" is trending in the direction of less precise, rather than more precise. As I recollect, "fearing" is the key element in justification of "throwing a gun" (Zane Grey colloquialism) on somebody.

In addition, the one outstanding lack in the Florida SYG law was that there was no blowback for mistakenly throwing a gun on an person who was not posing a real threat, as opposed to a feared threat. This little fact nearly eliminates the "responsibility" clause associated with SYG that was claimed by our friend Isser.


Edited by logtroll (12/29/13 05:22 PM)
Edit Reason: clean up
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#267046 - 12/29/13 05:17 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 39431
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Ardy

So will the precise among us agree that the focus is upon the concept of "justifiable"

Seems like precisely defining "justifiable" as "fearing that someone is going to cause me great harm" is trending in the direction of less precise, rather than more precise. As I recollect, "fearing" is the key element in justification of "throwing a gun" (Zane Grey colloquialism) on somebody.

In addition, the one outstanding lack in the Florida SYG law was that there was no blowback for mistakenly throwing a gun on an person who was not posing a real threat, as opposed to a feared threat. This little fact nearly eliminates the "responsibility" clause associated with SYG that was claimed by our friend Isser. associatewith SYG

That's Flor-i-duh logic for you. Hmm
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#267047 - 12/29/13 05:19 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
So there is the first question. How do we detirmine "justified?"

If two people walk into the woods and one is killed, and the killer claims it was a justified kill, does syg offer him immunity?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#267048 - 12/29/13 06:00 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8215
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ardy
So there is the first question. How do we detirmine "justified?"

If two people walk into the woods and one is killed, and the killer claims it was a justified kill, does syg offer him immunity?
That was my understanding of the Florida SYG law back when the GZ issue was hot. Simple math... the survivor has a reasonable belief to kill = justification. (That's not pure math, 'cause I used mostly words)
Quote:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.óA person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the otherís imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

If the other person is dead, and there were no witnesses, and the killer can present a reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary, then Bob's yer uncle.
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#267049 - 12/29/13 07:11 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 39431
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
So there is the first question. How do we detirmine "justified?"

If two people walk into the woods and one is killed, and the killer claims it was a justified kill, does syg offer him immunity?

Only if the shooter is white and the victim is black.
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#267050 - 12/29/13 08:35 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll

If the other person is dead, and there were no witnesses, and the killer can present a reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary, then Bob's yer uncle.


Well, if we assume that SYG laws are a mere expansion of castle doctrine, then I guess you have to have the same logic....

which in many cases is that if someone is in your house, you have presumptive fear for your life.... end of story.

I suppose it makes some sense inside the castle.... although many states disagree on this point. But once you put it outside the castle, it appears that SYB can be claimed in most any confrontation. And the application is presumptive unless there is proof that there was no justification. A proof that in many cases is quite difficult..... regardless of the actual threat
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#267055 - 12/29/13 09:59 PM Re: SYG: Intent, effectiveness, and blowback [Re: Ardy]
issodhos Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 12581
Originally Posted By: Ardy


[quote=issodhos]
SYG laws are generally constructed with two things in mind. 1) To protect the Justified and 2) Not provide an excuse for someone who unjustifiably uses deadly force."
Yours,
Issodhos


Giving credit where credit is due, Ardy, that is a part of a quote from C.J. -- a sentiment with which I agree. He wrote, "Iíll combine it to legally logical and say that SYG laws are generally constructed with two things in mind. 1) To protect the Justified and 2) Not provide an excuse for someone who unjustifiably uses deadly force."

I am assuming that by, "To protect the justified", C.J. is referring to strengthening the legal position of the individual who meets the criteria for having justifiably used lethal force -- either by providing a basis for invoking immunity from prosecution and civil actions prior to trial, or using it as an affirmative defense during trial. Of course, I cannot speak definitively for C.J., but that is my interpretation of what he meant. He will correct me if I am mistaken.
Yours,
Issodhos
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