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#269175 - 03/14/14 06:07 PM Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes
NW Ponderer Offline
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Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes

The referendum proposed by Russia for Crimea creates a false choice, which is based upon the knowledge that it violates the terms of the Ukrainian Constitution.
Quote:
The Crimean Parliament released the Ballot Questions for the 16 March referendum. The referendum questions are: (Translation from Kyiv Post see reference for original Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar)

"Do you support joining Crimea with the Russian Federation as a subject of Russian Federation?"
"Do you support restoration of 1992 Crimean constitution and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?"

There is no option on the 16 March ballot to maintain the status quo. Some outlets considered the questions as equivalent to "join Russia immediately or declare independence and then join Russia." The current Crimean constitution came into effect in 1999 and Article 135 of the Ukrainian constitution provides that the Crimean Constitution must be approved by the Ukrainian parliament.
(Wikipedia)
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#269224 - 03/15/14 09:42 PM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 11933
Bump

As this vote is tomorrow, this is quite timely.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#269231 - 03/16/14 12:53 AM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11703
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
I guess annexing the Crimea is a consolation prize for losing a Ukrainian puppet state

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#269233 - 03/16/14 07:25 AM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 4317
Loc: North San Diego County
I suspect that statement about the only choices being "join now" versus "join later" is not precisely true. For one thing, I see six different questions on the ballot shown in the article. (Though I have no idea what they actually say.)

Even the critical articles don't include the word "OR" when they present the two "choices". They simply say there are two ballot items, one being "Do you want to join Russia now?" and the second being "Do you want to return to the 1992 Constitution?".

Why couldn't voters just answer "NO" to both of those questions?

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#269240 - 03/16/14 04:40 PM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Not sure of the wording, or the method of voting, but fairly certain the outcome is rigged.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#269247 - 03/16/14 08:11 PM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ardy Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 11703
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Not sure of the wording, or the method of voting, but fairly certain the outcome is rigged.


Well, yes,
But how would a neutral observer view what happens in out country? You have gerrymandered "safe" districts that wind where the winning candidate really does not reflect the general views of the voters. You have political action committees with massive amounts of money that they use to distort the political process. And whomever is elected needs to constantly beg money from lobbyists in order to raise the money needed to win re-election. And for the issues that voters actually vote on, they are frequently so complicated that most voters have only a vague idea of what they are voting on, and that idea itself is shaped by massive media advertising.

Regarding Ukraine, from what i understand there is a very polarized population... and the people in Crimea are not at all fond of the people currently running things in Kiev.... and so probably even a very "fair" election would yield a consensus to establish some sort of autonomy from Kiev.

And, as far as I can tell, the borders of Ukraine are somewhat arbitrary, with Crimea being added to Ukraine fairly recently.

None of us are complaisant about how these events have unfolded. But just because Putin is a liar and a thug does not change the reasons why many people on the ground in Crimea will be happy (for the tie being) to join russia... not matter how fairly the question might be put to them



Edited by Ardy (03/16/14 08:17 PM)
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#269249 - 03/16/14 08:53 PM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36236
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Not sure of the wording, or the method of voting, but fairly certain the outcome is rigged.

The news casts I've seen show the Crimean people jumping for joy.




"Rigged outcomes" ? Teabaggers are saying that Obama's two victories were rigged - when we know that GW Bush's were: 2000 SCOTUS (s)election and 2004 Ohio electronic voting machines. Hmm
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#269252 - 03/17/14 07:57 AM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36236
Loc: Portland, Oregon

I found this at Politico: Vladimir Putin and the Lessons of 1938

Now I'm confused. Seriously. Hmm
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#269253 - 03/17/14 08:16 AM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
california rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 36236
Loc: Portland, Oregon


Interesting OP-Ed piece: We May go to Nuclear War over WHAT?!
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#269267 - 03/17/14 05:09 PM Re: Two choices in Crimean referendum: yes and yes [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1229
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its true, there was no real 'vote' as both options were, basically the same thing. What bothers me is how its being reported in OUR press. They continue to say things like; "The Crimeans have voted to be Russian". There are so many things wrong with that one. Its misleading, its not true, etc. Voting for something infers there is a choice, in this case they was no choice. There are also indications that they were forcing people to go and vote. One report also had the 'voters' putting several ballots in the box at the same time. I have even seen some reports that say stuff like; "The people of Crimea voted to join Russia" - again, a vote implies choice and there was no choice. This being true our press should not use the words 'vote' and 'ballot' as they both infer something that is simply not true.

Ardy posted; "You have gerrymandered "safe" districts that wind where the winning candidate really does not reflect the general views of the voters"
This is exactly wrong. Gerrymandering is the way politicians make sure that those voting for the winning candidate does accurately reflect their views. Its really pretty simple. You find a group of voters who have a specific view along with any other groups with the same views and then conglomerate them all into a 'gerrymandered' district. I suspect the easiest way to explain it is to take a look at what a gerrymandered district looks like. Google "gerrymandered district maps".

The main fear of the Ukrainians I have talked to is that their country reverts to full out civil war, which they consider a real possibility. I have no idea what happens if that actually does happen, but its not something I think anybody with half a mind wants to see.

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