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#270277 - 04/26/14 06:02 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
And interesting tangential thought
The Mormon church has an enormous investment portfolio much of that portfolio is land and businesses. Where in the Bible does it provide for this
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270278 - 04/26/14 06:17 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
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CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41594
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
So is Bundy racist or religious

Sounds more like religious racist. wink
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#270279 - 04/26/14 11:20 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8734
Loc: North San Diego County
I think the reason why the federal government owns so much land in Nevada, is that nobody ever thought that land was worth homesteading or buying. The US government still has title since taking it from Mexico. (Who took it from the native people.)

Outside of the original colony states, land titles typically go back through multiple subdivisions to US government ownership. If it was not "owned" by the government to begin with, how would anybody prove that they held a valid title? I'm sure Bundy's ranch title can be traced back to a federal land sale or grant, and that is the basis of his claim on his parcel.

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#270280 - 04/26/14 01:23 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9320
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ardy
So is Bundy racist or religious

Sounds more like religious racist. wink

Quote:
Cable:
You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!
South Pacific
_________________________
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#270282 - 04/26/14 03:52 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
So perhaps Mr. Bundy is simply the product of social conditioning that he had experienced
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270283 - 04/26/14 04:00 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9320
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Ardy
And interesting tangential thought
The Mormon church has an enormous investment portfolio much of that portfolio is land and businesses. Where in the Bible does it provide for this

A tangent to the tangent, which comes back to Bundy's rationale for not paying the BLM for his former lease:

The claim, a general one amongst a faction of the aunty gummit folks, is that the Constitution does not include much in the way of land U.S. ownership in the enumerated powers, just as the Bible, or the Book of Mormon does not enumerate the power of the Mormon Church to own an enormous investment portfolio.

The fact is, as anyone who ever tried to form an organization and bound it fully with rules at inception knows, there will be lots of stuff come up that your lack of prescience failed to rule upon.

The Constitution is a set of rules of government that were intended to give our society a framework to facilitate living together with the least mount of unmanageable discord, especially violent discord. These rules were based upon the experience and knowledge of the Founders, and are their best effort to avoid having some of the shiit that they had to deal with from happening again. They were pretty smart, but there was a lot they failed to account for; like the internet, cruise missiles, refrigerators, Porsches, no slavery, and meth. (I may have missed something, but probably nothing important - oh, yeah, a war with Mexico and taking vast amounts of land in the deal).

From my experience, wise folks would understand that the initial set of rules, for living together without killing each other all the time, would probably need some flexibility in interpretation. Trying to interpret them in questionable, controversial, and inflexible ways 250 years later was probably not an intent. (I have to wonder why the provide for the General Welfare phrase, which appears twice, is not as ardently supported by the rabid Constitutionalists as the supposed enumerated powers restriction is?) BTW, where is the part about it being okay for people with guns having the right to overrule the real rules by way of threatening to kill the rule enforcers? I can't seem to find it in my King James edition of the Constitution.

Back to Brer Bundy and the Malicias Host, if one tries to work out where their arguments about his ranching rights would lead, it is to anarchy and no rules for living together. That is clearly antithetical to the intent of having rules in the first place, ain't it? Hmm As for the State of Nevada being the proper owner of all that desert, how does one explain that the Nevada Constitution expressly refused to become the owner of all of it at statehood? If they wouldn't take ownership, and the federal gummit can't own it, shouldn't it have gone back to Mexico, or the Indians? Why does Massa Bundy get it? (Maybe he could mollify the Lefties and start a non-profit to help out Negroes by giving them the opportunity to be happy slaves again? Probably some federal grants available for such socially mindful endeavors...)
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#270284 - 04/26/14 04:22 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9320
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Ardy
So perhaps Mr. Bundy is simply the product of social conditioning that he had experienced

Yes, according to Lieutenant Cable.

(I sense an Ardy treasure hunt... where could that sly logician be going with this?)
_________________________
An entrepreneur sees problems as the seeds of opportunity.

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#270286 - 04/26/14 07:04 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Ardy
So perhaps Mr. Bundy is simply the product of social conditioning that he had experienced

Yes, according to Lieutenant Cable.

(I sense an Ardy treasure hunt... where could that sly logician be going with this?)


I do not have a planned end game. Just trying to find the perhaps less obvious implications of the known facts

For instance. Consider mr bundy and whether he is a racist. IMO he sincerely feels that he is not a racist but has been misunderstood

Is he sincere or perhaps he is a conscious racist who is openly lying. From what I can tell he seems sincere however misguided As may equally well be the case with many other people who appear racist and who emphatically deny that they are racist.

In Bundys case there is a clear causal rationale for how he might have acquired his racial views through his religion. He would have been surrounded by people with similar points of view. And so ultimately he would have been exposed to enormous social conditioning. In which case it would make sense that he would have these views while not thinking him self to be a racist.

If you look at what Bunde said regarding race. It actually does not make a whole lot of sense except as a collection of clichés preconceptions and assumptions from the outside that is relatively clear. But from Mr. Bundy perspective. He feels his thought process to be perfectly normal and rational. Common sense really.

This same line of logical analysis can be applied to Mr. Bundy other pontifications. Does it make sense that he would ride around on his horse carrying an American flag well at the same time making clear that he rejects the authority of the federal government whose flag he carries. It is kind of ludicrous isn't it. But it makes sense to him.

And within that context I speculate that he has been in a social environment that has fundamentally conditioned him to certain lines of thinking just as is the case with his views on race

People become conditioned to the inherent truth of certain clichés this happens to all of us not just the Bundys of the world.

This happens with liberal thought processes. And has happened for quite some time. And is in Part what conservatives instinctively object to about liberals and their memes.

I accept that critique of liberal thought as having validity. However liberal memes have been extensively critiqued over the period of time starting with Ronald Reagan and in my opinion the threat from on examined thinking in our nation at the current time comes from conservative memes

And this is what I find so profoundly disturbing about propaganda coming from Fox news from Hannity from beck. From Limbaugh. And ultimately from the Koch brothers The danger is not about any particular policy discussion. In my opinion the danger come from the persistent conditioning of the American public. The impact of these unexamined memes will indoor for a very long time.

However nonsensical Mr. Bundy is. There is no denying that his pronouncements struck a chord among many conservatives. This is because IMO. The memes that he was spouting have been commonly accepted by a large portion of the public. Memes like fundamental resentment of the federal government. The meme that the federal government operates a giant police state to deprive citizens of their rights and freedoms. The meme about how we live in a welfare state and that this enslaves us to the state.

There are many more such conservative memes evident in bundys ramblings. It is unnecessary for me to list them all


The point being that these memes have now been absorbed as fundament truth by a whole lot of people. These ideas are not open for discussion or examination. You cannot anymore discuss the basis of federal land ownership. The accepted truth is that it is unconstitutional. It is fundamentally wrong and simply not open for discussion



Edited by Ardy (04/26/14 07:09 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270288 - 04/26/14 08:28 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9320
Loc: One of the Mexicos
It prompts the question of why these folks have been conditioned to the aunty gov memes, and why they are so susceptible. I used to think that Limbaugh and his opportunistic emulators were motivated by the easy money to be had by working the rubes. I still think that's a piece of it but we are learning the huge play that KochBros and friends now have in the game.

The long term consequences appear to be disastrous, are none of these folks playing the long game?

Has Uncle Sam indeed done the deed in Trinidad and now goes by Aunty Gummit?


Edited by logtroll (04/26/14 10:11 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed bungles from phone post
_________________________
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#270290 - 04/26/14 08:34 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41594
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
For instance. Consider mr bundy and whether he is a racist. IMO he sincerely feels that he is not a racist but has been misunderstood

Racists never feel they deserve the label. However, they do, absolutely.

Originally Posted By: Ardy
From what I can tell he seems sincere however misguided As may equally well be the case with many other people who appear racist and who emphatically deny that they are racist.

In Bundys case there is a clear causal rationale for how he might have acquired his racial views through his religion. He would have been surrounded by people with similar points of view. And so ultimately he would have been exposed to enormous social conditioning. In which case it would make sense that he would have these views while not thinking him self to be a racist.

Social conditioning is no excuse for institutional racism

Originally Posted By: Ardy
In my opinion the danger come from the persistent conditioning of the American public. The impact of these unexamined memes will indoor for a very long time.

Goebbels would be proud of the conditioning that RWing nut media figures have on their audience.

Originally Posted By: Ardy
There is no denying that his pronouncements struck a chord among many conservatives.

Apples don't fall far trees.

Originally Posted By: Ardy
The memes that he was spouting have been commonly accepted by a large portion of the public. Memes like fundamental resentment of the federal government. The meme that the federal government operates a giant police state to deprive citizens of their rights and freedoms. The meme about how we live in a welfare state and that this enslaves us to the state.

Conservative social conditioning.
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