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#270531 - 05/08/14 04:28 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: NW Ponderer]
Scoutgal Offline
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Registered: 01/23/01
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As I said before(probably on the first page of this thread), Cliven Bundy et al is a gang. Just like the Crips and/or the Bloods.
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#270534 - 05/08/14 05:23 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
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IMO it is a little easy to make generalization about the situation.

First what ever else I agree that laws have to be enforced. And people forming gangs that brandish weapons is illegal and should be addressed

That said. There are a few subtleties to this situation

Bundy did not select the militia. Nor does he lead them. I have never seen bundy carry a gun. And as I understand it he asked the militia to stop carrying around their rifles

IMO the malicia there are not evil people. They are people that are living in a fantasy. They have a highly distorted perception of reality

Which is not to say they might not be dangerous. But at this point IMO they are mostly deluded. And IMO the problem is not so much these individuals. Or their gang. The problem is the self reinforcing subculture that nurtures these delusions. And IMO that is the essence of the problem that is glossed over in demonizing this particular group of individuals
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#270536 - 05/08/14 07:10 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
Scoutgal Offline
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It IS a gang. And maybe most are not evil, in the Bundy Gang, but there is some evil intent. They wish to impose their will on others. That is what gangs do.
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#270539 - 05/08/14 07:40 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Scoutgal]
Ardy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scoutgal
It IS a gang. And maybe most are not evil, in the Bundy Gang, but there is some evil intent. They wish to impose their will on others. That is what gangs do.


I agree

But also think there are distinctions

It is not a gang like the bloods. The crips or the mafia. This gang was not pre existent. It did not arrive with a plan. A bunch of people showed up and self organized. In some ways it is more correctly described as a mob
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270542 - 05/08/14 09:06 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
Scoutgal Offline
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Registered: 01/23/01
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I disagree. While they had no previous plan, they have one now, however stupid it is. And they are using intimidation, as do gangs. They may have started out as a mob, but they evolved into a gang.
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#270554 - 05/09/14 01:34 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14164
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ardy


Bundy did not select the militia. Nor does he lead them.


Sorry but the evidence says otherwise.



Originally Posted By: Ardy
I have never seen bundy carry a gun. And as I understand it he asked the militia to stop carrying around their rifles.


Generals don't carry automatic weapons either. In fact in modern times they don't even have their personal sidearms on them.
Why would Bundy need to carry when his entire insurgent army is at his disposal?

Originally Posted By: Ardy
IMO the malicia there are not evil people. They are people that are living in a fantasy. They have a highly distorted perception of reality


That is the kind of rationalization that we heard from the Germans after the camps were discovered. Turns out a lot more Germans knew about them than they claimed. And they stood by, and said nothing.

Originally Posted By: Ardy
Which is not to say they might not be dangerous. But at this point IMO they are mostly deluded. And IMO the problem is not so much these individuals. Or their gang. The problem is the self reinforcing subculture that nurtures these delusions. And IMO that is the essence of the problem that is glossed over in demonizing this particular group of individuals


The very most dangerous people down through history are those who perpetrate tremendous evil while working under an egregious delusion.

GOTT MITT UNS! - - and "The Kon-ster-tew-shin!" - - and Baby Jeebus, too!

Sorry but this is a pernicious form of apologetics which I find disturbing.

These are warlords, plain and simple.
They ain't regular army, they don't recognize the government, and they ain't sworn law enforcement, but they function as a bit of both, minus the authority.

In Nicaragua similar groups functioned as death squads, cleaning out anyone who didn't agree with them.

Given enough time and a little more agitprop, I wager we can count on seeing these tin soldiers becoming a whole lot more brazen.

Ardy, I appreciate it when anyone wishes to put a cooler headed analysis on a tough situation but sometimes there's just no place to go.
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#270557 - 05/09/14 03:23 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16971
I'll start by agreeing completely with Jeff and disagreeing slightly with Ardy. These are gangs, and but more like biker gangs. They are organized, they do have "membership." They have some organizational difficulty, because there are multiple groups represented. They are "loosely affiliated" but have related goals just like Al Qiada and its affiliates.

Look, they've been looking for an excuse to band together and be confrontational. Remember Homeland Security put out a report that identified them as a potential security threat just last year. They are seriously fringe, and there even more fringe-y ones among them. They are a dangerous lot, and sooner or later will do something even more stupid. When one gets so caught up in a fantasy, one is capable of justifying all kinds of atrocities. Remember LA and the police shooter (whose name I cannot remember). Or Timothy McVeigh? These guys are just a firecracker away from "going rogue."

Thay have already committed felony assaults (on video no less), and threatened physical violence. Local police need to get them under control or turn in their badges. I'd challenge anyone to make a distinction between them and AQ. Except for track record, they are the same, and have the same mind set. They have their 'cause', are convinced they are 'justified', are willing to do violence against innocents, and the history - or their mythologized version - supports them. They want to impose their own constuti-Caliphate on us all. Zealots and nut jobs are dangerous.
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#270558 - 05/09/14 03:45 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16971
The cop killer was Christopher Dorner.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#270561 - 05/09/14 05:27 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Gosh
Sometimes i wonder about my ability to communicate my ideas

I thought i said that i neither endorse or excuse these so called militia

I was trying to identify the broader problem that is much more widespread and in truth has achieved significant resonance

I was trying to point out the diverse. Nature of the people responding

And the imo fact that in listening to these people they seem sincerely deluded
And where as a gang would typically have clear leadership and objectives
And those leaders and gang members would have huge investment of profit and self interest

Where as these. Guys seem to me to think themselves self sacrificing patriots


And by the way i agree that deluded people are also often dangerous
So i am not overlooking the danger
So

So
Lets assume that we recognize the problem and want to deal with it

We cannot arrest our way out of this problem

And i think that the battle to change minds will not be won by labeling people as evil when they think of themselves as patriots. Public perception on this issue will not be won by the above approach

By way of comparison
Drone warfare will not solve islamic extremism
To some extent that problem requires a more nuanced approach that includes trying to understand the appeal.
And where possible stop making the situation worse
Which again is not to dismiss the danger nor ti excuse what these people do
But hating them back and calling them evil doers is kind of a boneheaded response

And likewise fir the militia. Calling them names gets us no where.

More later
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270563 - 05/09/14 06:59 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16971
I have never really understood schizophrenics, either. Their behavior has an internal logic - to them. It is one thing to identify behavior patterns and actions, an another to label, or claim labeling. I have tried to do the former, but their actions are criminal, and their approach is gang-like. Most gang members don't "join" to engage in criminal activity either. They join for protection, to safeguard their families, to have a sense of belonging, because they feel alienated. Which of these traits do not apply to these "patriots"?

It is simply wrong to give more credence to their justifications. Also wrong to assert they don't have "leaders." Who do you think the "oath keepers" are? I agree that it is important to understand their motivations, just like it is important to understand the motivation of any gang, or band of terrorists: not because they are "reasonable" or "justified" - but because they need treatment, and the public needs to be protected from them. I think we all agree they are dangerous, and getting more so. Moreover, law enforcement action feeds into their paranoid fantasies... just like for a schizophrenic.

Personally, I feel that they need to be on the watch list and that they do pose a public threat. That is just cold, hard, reaslism.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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