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#270318 - 04/27/14 06:20 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Fwiw
To some degree I think that bundys position is misunderstood. Granted this derives from his own words.

As in understand it
He does not reject the national HIV in totality. Just in its gross over reach. So he thinks the federal gov has no standing regarding administration of that he views as local or state matter. So in that sense he rejects and does not recognize gov authority

I do not agree. But think that we should strive to accurately represent the ideas that are being proposed.

Btw
These views fit nicely within standard john birch memes about states rights anvd radically limited federal government whose power extends only to things explicitly enumerated in the construction

This view of the situation shifts bundy from being an idiosyncratic dead beat and places him within mainstream john birch memes. Which then also explains why he quickly gained so much support. The people supporting him resonated with what he was saying because they have also bought into the same memes about government over reach and strictly enumerated federal powers and states rights



Edited by Ardy (04/27/14 07:01 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270359 - 04/29/14 10:13 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
The powers enumerated by the federal government are clearly established, approved and legitimate.
Bundy's statement to the contrary is what has no standing.
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#270366 - 04/30/14 12:40 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline
It's the Despair Quotient!
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 15728
Loc: Whittier, California
Uhhhh...checkpoints, ARMED checkpoints.

Military? Nope.
Police? Nope?

Just a bunch of armed people who apparently have decided that they are the law.
Welcome to the NEW America.

Congressman: Bundy Militia Has Set Up Road 'Checkpoints' In Nevada
_________________________
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#270368 - 04/30/14 01:44 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
So much for the Wingers claiming that the Obama Nation is a dictatorship...

I have a perverse desire to drive over there and tell the maliciapeeps to feck off.

Unlike the maliciapeeps, I am too conservative to do such a thing.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#270371 - 04/30/14 06:24 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
When you believe in the Second Amendment Beans, ordinary rules do not apply to you. You have the right, nay, the obligation, to use your weapons willy-nilly upon the public, because, well, the Second Amendment. That, of course, is the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, a document upon which you pledge yourself, but have no idea what it contains, nor do you recognize the government which it creates.

I have a friend whose daughter has become schizophrenic, but her delusions are much more coherent than Bundy's and his ilk.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#270372 - 04/30/14 12:44 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
When you believe in the Second Amendment Beans, ordinary rules do not apply to you.

I see that some of the Rightwingnutters around the innertubes are justifying such behavior as necessary when true patriots are forced to oppose tyranny, just like in the Revolutionary War. In other words, for many of them the revolution has begun!

The popular fantasy is that individuals, or small bands of well-armed "families", will soon have to hunker down and weather the apocalypse, defending against the storm troopers and the Takers (Zombies) who will be roaming the land "taking".

I remember reading Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" and thinking how impossible the scenario would be where virtually everything in Nature is dead, except for the characters who are wandering about looking for a way to keep on surviving. The fact is, life on earth is a very complex system, and to have that system disrupted to the extent described in the story would mean that there would be no survivors, at least not for long. And therein lies the fault in the fantasy - that little enclaves of people, with their guns and survival rations, will survive the apocalypse that they seem to wish for.

I have a brother-in-law, a medical doctor, not a Rightwingnut, and we were once entertaining the idea of throwing in together to buy 80 acres in the country, with a stream, timber, and 20 acres of bottomland. I had visions of a wonderful and productive place, building with local lumber and stone, growing a bounty of food, and restoring the stream riparian ecosystem (it was trashed from decades of unmanaged cattle grazing) - something that others would want to emulate up and down the valley. In the middle of my fantasy, he turned to me and asked what I thought about guns for protection. Protection against what? For when the shiit hits the fan and the the Takers come. I plan to be part of a wide community where we take care of each other. If any Takers come, we will accommodate them. Oh.
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#270373 - 04/30/14 02:13 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
IMO gasoline availability would be a leading indicator of economic collapse. Which is to say that in order for gasoline to be available
There would have to be some modicum of a functioning economy

Alternatively. In a total collapse scenario
Gasoline might only be. Available near a refinery even assuming the refinery could somehow continue to operate during a catastrophic collapse and chaos.

Anyway. If there is gasoline available then the system will be functions well enough that takers will stay in their cities

If gasoline is not available and there is chaotic collapse. I just do not see city dwellers heading out from their cities into the countryside looking to forage.


The country is no longer composed of little farmsteads and their larders of self produced food. The people in the country mostly operate mono culture agriculture and buy the I food at the supermarket just like in the city.

And even suppose there are some survivalists who have long term food supplies to last them a year or so. Then what? Living off the land is very challenging. Even survivalists will find big holes in required skill sets.

Films like waterworld or mad max are elaborate fantasies. Total economic collapse will be much less colorful. And overall something that I would prefer to avoid by most any political arrangement.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270374 - 04/30/14 02:31 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
By the way
It is also a ridiculous fantasy that armed maloti as will. fight against our government to Nobly restore our liberty

I mean our gov now has a lot of experience dealing with armed insurgents. No shortage of weapons or tactics.

But even supposing such an insurgence took hold
Now you have a civil war. Hey look around. Civil wars are really really ugly propositions. And almost never result in Any one securing some idyllic life of liberty.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270375 - 04/30/14 03:17 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10253
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Ardy
...The country is no longer composed of little farmsteads and their larders of self produced food. The people in the country mostly operate mono culture agriculture and buy the I food at the supermarket just like in the city.
... Living off the land is very challenging. Even survivalists will find big holes in required skill sets.

The best prevention against economic collapse is to have healthier communities.

Why do so many folks fantasize about preparing for an apocalypse, instead of preparing against an apocalypse?
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

Top
#270376 - 04/30/14 05:06 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17399
Originally Posted By: logtroll

The best prevention against economic collapse is to have healthier communities.

Why do so many folks fantasize about preparing for an apocalypse, instead of preparing against an apocalypse.
Wise words indeed!


Edited by NW Ponderer (04/30/14 06:54 PM)
Edit Reason: correcting atrocious errors!
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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