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#270007 - 04/16/14 08:02 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14412
Loc: Whittier, California
Yeppers...
_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#270011 - 04/16/14 08:58 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6931
Loc: Highlands, Tx
apparently this character appealed to arguments of the posse comitatus ... perhaps this is why beck dropped the issue

hannity on the other hand is probably ignorant and glossed over Bundy's appeal to be arrested by the county sheriff and began fomenting rebellion

today hannity thinks after twenty years the governments response is ridiculous ... i had to wonder what he would have thought of Pres Washington's response to the distillers of western pennsylvania
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ignorance is the enemy
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#270013 - 04/17/14 12:23 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   happy

It's the Despair Quotient!
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 14412
Loc: Whittier, California
Bundy has help from all corners.
Why there's even a man runnin for a seat in the
House of Representin!



Not too far from:

_________________________
The only people pushing the Athenian Straw Man Nonexistent Threat of Slippery Slope Windyfoggery (ASMNSSW) RE DEMOCRACY are people who have a misunderstanding/problem or hatred of democracy. (See AUTHORITARIANS)

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#270026 - 04/17/14 03:32 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17149
Ma, are you completely oblivious to the disconnect between your position on this and, say, voter ID? The only consistent thread I see is, "what's good for my party?" If one believes in "law and order" and "respect for the rule of law", or purports to, one cannot support Bundy and his clansmen and kith. This was not some "popular uprising", this was a gathering of the fringe. This was not some arbitrary enforcemet of government privilege, this was armed robbery by a group of thugs with guns - and not by the BLM, who have law, right, and reason on their side. I am looking forward to his criminal trial and incarceration.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#270029 - 04/17/14 03:58 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 27583
Loc: CA USA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Originally Posted By: logtroll


I think the amateur militia certainly behaved in a ham-handed manner, and without any legal basis for their actions.


It's a mistake to keep calling these folks a militia.
Of course I figure you know that but seeing as how they're being portrayed as such by the media, I get it.

But we both know, ain't no militia.
They're domestic terrorists.
WHITE domestic right wing terrorists.


They are nothing more than a gang like the Crips or the Bloods.
_________________________
milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#270031 - 04/17/14 04:41 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6509
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Ma, are you completely oblivious to the disconnect between your position on this and, say, voter ID? The only consistent thread I see is, "what's good for my party?" If one believes in "law and order" and "respect for the rule of law", or purports to, one cannot support Bundy and his clansmen and kith. This was not some "popular uprising", this was a gathering of the fringe. This was not some arbitrary enforcemet of government privilege, this was armed robbery by a group of thugs with guns - and not by the BLM, who have law, right, and reason on their side. I am looking forward to his criminal trial and incarceration.


NW,
Maybe I am sympathetic toward this, but that was not what my post was meant for. I mean, if somebody can get an easement against new construction because it will block their view, then this guy deserves to use the land that he has been using since 1877. Also, since the Fed has eliminated private or state ownership of almost 90% of the land in NV, it would seem a pretty good idea to allow land use that actually contributes to the economy.

The Fed comes in and instead of arresting the farmer, they blockade the farmer from his cattle? Give me a break! Once again, the Federal Government has to get in touch with its inner 1984 mentality. If the guy is arrested and tried, and convicted then he deserves what he gets. I do predict that the trial will be moved out of state and that the jury will contain none of his peers because if you put a single NV cattle rancher on that jury it would end, at best, as hung.
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#270034 - 04/17/14 05:49 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ma_Republican]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Bionic Scribe

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 27583
Loc: CA USA
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Ma, are you completely oblivious to the disconnect between your position on this and, say, voter ID? The only consistent thread I see is, "what's good for my party?" If one believes in "law and order" and "respect for the rule of law", or purports to, one cannot support Bundy and his clansmen and kith. This was not some "popular uprising", this was a gathering of the fringe. This was not some arbitrary enforcemet of government privilege, this was armed robbery by a group of thugs with guns - and not by the BLM, who have law, right, and reason on their side. I am looking forward to his criminal trial and incarceration.


NW,
Maybe I am sympathetic toward this, but that was not what my post was meant for. I mean, if somebody can get an easement against new construction because it will block their view, then this guy deserves to use the land that he has been using since 1877. Also, since the Fed has eliminated private or state ownership of almost 90% of the land in NV, it would seem a pretty good idea to allow land use that actually contributes to the economy.

The Fed comes in and instead of arresting the farmer, they blockade the farmer from his cattle? Give me a break! Once again, the Federal Government has to get in touch with its inner 1984 mentality. If the guy is arrested and tried, and convicted then he deserves what he gets. I do predict that the trial will be moved out of state and that the jury will contain none of his peers because if you put a single NV cattle rancher on that jury it would end, at best, as hung.


Ma~One, if he uses the land, then he should pay the range fee, like all the other ranchers. He has not in over 20 years. Then like any landlord, the US government moved to have him evicted. It was done in a lawful manor, and ruled upon by the court. Two, he then refused to leave, and made it a criminal action. Three, when confronted by government officials sworn to carry out a lawful decision and action, he then drew arms against said officials and threatened deadly force. He then allowed other people to join him in this action. It was no different than any gang that threatened law enforcement. Four, If Bundy is causing the deterioration of public(not his own land, since he neither purchased it, paid taxes on it or maintains it), then he(and his livestock, and employees) can be lawfully removed from said land.

He may not recognize Federal Authority, but he does not have that right. He lives in the United States of America, and therefore must abide by federal AND State rules-just like everyone else. He does not have special privileges. He is nothing more than a thief and a squatter who has now formed a gang. He is no better than the Crips or the Bloods. He deserves to have his assets(that includes his livestock) confiscated, sold and applied to taxes and fees owed for using land that does NOT belong to him. In addition, he should be arrested and jailed for threatening government officials. He had his day in court about the land use and lost. It wasn't like the Feds came in willy nilly and just blocked him. He had been told several times to take his cattle and leave. He refused. HE is totally in the wrong.
_________________________
milk and Girl Scout cookies ;-)

Save your breath-You may need it to blow up your date.





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#270035 - 04/17/14 07:06 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 9528
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Maybe I am sympathetic toward this...
The only reason I can see why a person who is not a member of the Bundy family would be sympathetic is because of having an unquestioned prejudice against the government.

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
I mean, if somebody can get an easement against new construction because it will block their view, then this guy deserves to use the land that he has been using since 1877.
It has already been posted on this thread, either directly or through links, that this is not true in the way it is being used. One would think from this that the 600,000 acres has been consistently in use by the Bundy family since that time, and is part of their ranch. In fact, some of Bundy's ancestors grazed cows on parts of the same landscape intermittently starting in the 1870's, but the current Bundy "ranch" didn't come into existence until 1954. Out West here, such a ranch is typically a private property "base ranch", which only needs to be 20 acres (I think) and the rest is a federal land lease, which is much like a lease of anything. It gets periodically renewed and the rules change depending upon the condition of the range or changes in the law. The leases are offered on the open market to all bidders who qualify (own a "base ranch) whenever they reach a renewal point. Every time it was used, a lease was involved. "Ancestral rights" to the land are not a part of the deal.

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Also, since the Fed has eliminated private or state ownership of almost 90% of the land in NV, ...
Where did you get this tidbit of misinformation? The land was originally owned by the federal government (ceded by Mexico in 1848), any that's not was sold or given to the non-federal owners, accompanied by legal title. I'm sure sometimes the fed condemns and "takes back" some land in very particular cases, but this land has never left federal ownership. The reason 90% is still in federal ownership is because nobody thought it was worth homesteading. They did homestead the better parts along streams and such (the 10%).

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
... it would seem a pretty good idea to allow land use that actually contributes to the economy.
Federal land grazing in the arid West is not a positive economic benefit to anyone but the leaseholder. The cost of administering the leases, and other land management costs, greatly exceed the pittance that the ranchers are charged. "Doing nothing" with the land in question would be a greater benefit to the economy. They don't call these guys welfare ranchers for nothing! There is another set of benefits that come from ecosystem services, that arise from having the landscape in good ecological condition. Cows are not good for such desert ecosystems and they degrade the ecosystem services value.

Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Fed comes in and instead of arresting the farmer, they blockade the farmer from his cattle?
Scoutgal explained this one. Bundy owes the federal government money. They got a judgment against him, just like you would if somebody didn't pay you, and they are going to get as much of the value from selling his cows as possible. If there is money left over, Bundy will get it. Removing the cows from the federal land is a separate issue, from which costs also accrue, that can be reimbursed from the sale of the cattle. Bundy could have removed the cows himself and paid the back-rent, but he didn't. He's a standard deadbeat, that's all.
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You can’t solve a problem without first understanding what the problem is.

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#270036 - 04/17/14 07:19 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 17149
log's analysis is complete. I have nothing that need be added, so I won't. I agree completely.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#270043 - 04/17/14 10:35 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6931
Loc: Highlands, Tx
perhaps you should re-visit the Whiskey Rebellion to gain some context of what is really at stake
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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