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#270066 - 04/18/14 05:32 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Spag-hetti]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40477
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
Wow. With all the things we fear, this is the latest attack on our soil. And this revolting malicia (thanks Logtroll) is being defended/applauded by right-wing media hosts.

Sean Hannity and Alex Jones are leading the Wingnut Clown Parade.

Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
They sure don't match what the right wingers tell us we should fear and loathe.

From what I saw, they are uniformly white. What's to fear from white Americans?

According to this article, T-Baggers are old and white. Hmm

No wonder they are so bitter. coffee
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#270072 - 04/19/14 01:31 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
From what I read
Bundy was paying range fees till 1993

At that time Blm took over management of the land

They decided that the number of cattle on the land exceeded capacity
And. Reduced permitted number of cattle

Bundy refused the change and stopped paying range fees
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#270076 - 04/19/14 04:42 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8596
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ardy
From what I read
Bundy was paying range fees till 1993

At that time Blm took over management of the land ...

The BLM was managing the land prior to 1993, as well, with multiple management objectives. Grazing had long been the #1 objective, however, due in no small part to politics, and no large part to ecological science. The BLM reduced the stocking levels for cows in 1993 in response to ecological issues and Bundy objected. Many ranchers took advantage of a chance to get refunds from the BLM on leases and payments for "improvements" to the federally owned land (fencing, watering infrastructure) that they had paid for, if they wanted to stop grazing as a result of the reduced stocking levels.

Unlike his neighbors, Bundy just got mad and refused to comply and stopped paying. Then is when his steady creation of legal fictions began, along with the story that his family had been ranching the land long before the federal government became involved. The problem with that story is the only reason the Bundy ancestors were there is because the federal government acquired the land from Mexico as a result of the war (1848) and opened it for homesteading to Americans. The U.S. had to be involved before the Bundy ancestors or they would have had to be Mexicans (or illegals in Mexico).

The reason only about 10% of what became the state of Nevada is private is because much of the land was too barren to homestead. One department or another of the federal government has managed the land in question since 1848, the BLM being the agency in charge since 1948.

A great irony is that this land was never suited for cattle grazing on an ecologically sustainable basis in the first place. In the late 1800's, a very large portion of federal land under grazing in the Southwest, most of it by large companies owned by wealthy easterners, was in a severely overgrazed condition. A period of droughts completed the near destruction of the ecosystems - as I recollect from a historical analysis out of Northern Arizona University, an estimated 80% of all topsoil was lost to wind and water erosion because of the severely degraded watershed condition caused by cows and sheep.

Take a look at the photos accompanying this story and imagine cows living on that landscape. Bundy has been running between 600 and 900 head in the past ten years on 600,000 acres. Basic math shows that it takes on average 800 acres per cow to keep them fed, and that's leaving them on the range only part of the year. The standard grazing fee is something like $1.75 per AUM (animal unit month, which means a cow, or cow and calf). If the grazing is only eight months of the year, that's $14 per AUM, or 1-3/4 cents per acre per year. If the Bundy clan had been leasing the land continuously since 1877 (137 years) they would have paid a total of only $2.40 per acre in fees in today's dollars! That's a right worth defending!! (Unless you are a taxpayer, or someone who cares about environmental health, or the economy, or the law, or intelligence...)

Cows should not be on that landscape, there is no sane reason for it. I suppose that makes the issue all the more suitable for an insane "war" to happen over it. Hmm


Edited by logtroll (04/19/14 02:51 PM)
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#270086 - 04/19/14 10:06 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12669
Loc: Whittier, California
Thank you LT for what appears to be a sterling analysis of the issue at hand. ThumbsUp
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#270097 - 04/20/14 02:10 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8596
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Thanks, JH. Abuse of public lands and federally subsidized NonCon "custom and culture" (welfare ranchers) have a special place in my heart and I simply love to rhapsodize thereon.

Speaking of traitors, Bundy and his malicia friends are in that thrilling position of desperately needing to succeed at the overthrow of the government in order to escape being forever branded as seditionists and traitors. I guess that they reached a point where beer and reality TV shows just weren't filling their lives to the brim anymore.

Crazy bastids.
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#270098 - 04/20/14 02:18 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
Scoutgal Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 27583
Loc: CA USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Thanks, JH. Abuse of public lands and federally subsidized NonCon "custom and culture" (welfare ranchers) have a special place in my heart and I simply love to rhapsodize thereon.

Speaking of traitors, Bundy and his malicia friends are in that thrilling position of desperately needing to succeed at the overthrow of the government in order to escape being forever branded as seditionists and traitors. I guess that they reached a point where beer and reality TV shows just weren't filling their lives to the brim anymore.

Crazy bastids.


LOL
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#270101 - 04/20/14 02:50 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Scoutgal]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8596
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I am wondering if the posts of factual information about the Bundy Rebellion have influenced MaR's sympathies at all? Hmm
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#270102 - 04/20/14 03:37 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40477
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I am wondering if the posts of factual information about the Bundy Rebellion have influenced MaR's sympathies at all? Hmm

If presenting factual information to Bundy supporters at Greta's is any indication, I'd say "no!" This is why they keep losing elections.
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#270118 - 04/21/14 03:14 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6440
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
I am wondering if the posts of factual information about the Bundy Rebellion have influenced MaR's sympathies at all? Hmm


I have an instinctual distrust of the government, especially a government that sends armed soldiers against its population. One can be sympathetic and still see right from wrong. As I stated before, Bundy should have been arrested and dragged before a judge. I am also pretty sure that the Federal government shouldn't own 90% of any state's property.

I am encouraged to see the people take a stand and discouraged to see the Fed insert armed "agents" into a civil disobedience dispute. There is a lot of wrong to spread around in this situation and the only good thing that happened was that the BLM took their people out before somebody got hurt. There are times in history when the people have to take a stand against the natural urge of the central government to abuse its power in the name of subduing the populous. This time clearer heads prevailed, the next time, or the time after, they may not. As was proven at Ruby Ridge, human nature is unpredictable, on both sides of the line.

I repeat, arrest him, put him on trial and send him to jail. Get a court order to confiscate his property for past due grazing fees and act like the authority and not a gang of thugs who is willing to maim and kill to achieve its goals.


Edited by Ma_Republican (04/21/14 03:16 PM)
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#270120 - 04/21/14 03:50 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8596
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
You know, MaR, the BLM guys are part of their law enforcement staff. I guess all police who are on law enforcement duty are "armed soldiers", in your anti-gummit view?

What about the so-called "militia", you don't see them as illegitimate armed rebels? What law were they enforcing?

My real question to you, though, was about the economics of arid public lands ranching. I thought you were, above all else, an advocate of fiscal prudence - of not wasting tax dollars. So why are you, and all those malicia folks, supporting the Bundy family's 100+ years of sponging off of the taxpayers? (I'm beginning to think ya'll are closet Hindus, what with all the cow worship and all.)

Of secondary interest to me is if you still think that the federal government has been confiscating state, county, and private land.
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