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#270227 - 04/24/14 03:09 PM Funding the government
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
There have been various threads about who pays for funding our government.
And if you look at the statistics it probably appears that even with text cuts for the rich. This portion of the population pays a very large percentage of our national budget

Note
In this discussion I am only talking about income text and disregarding things like social security or sales tax.

In any case
Conservatives make the case that the wealthy actually there too much of the burden of running our country. And that way too many people are show we say takers rather than contributors.

On the face of it this analysis has some great truth to it. But in my opinion it is a facile truth. If you have an economy where ordinary people are doing fairly well then it makes sense they should also contribute to the expenses of governing the country.

Otoh
If the bulk of ordinary people are squeezed increasingly towards subsistence incomes. There isn't really a whole lot of resources leftover for them to contribute towards taxes is there?

Over the course of the last 40 or 50 years. The distribution of national income and wealth has shifted dramatically towards the upper income earners. Well middle-class and lower income earners have seen their economic prospects stagnate or fall

If we want to have a nation where everyone contributes to the nation then we also need a nation where everyone does well enough so they are able to contribute

If on the other hand we want to have a nation that maximizes corporate profits and does so at the expense of ordinary people. Then in my opinion we half to expect that the people who are doing well from this system will pay the costs of running the system

However given previous thread about how policy is decided in this country. It seems unlikely that the rich will be willing to pay more but in stead will ask for even more text cuts. Or alternatively they will want to stop paying for benefits to people who they consider to be undeserving.

And don't you know. The on deserving in this country is anyone who isn't rich. You can work three minimum wage jobs and support your family well at the same time be considered undeserving. Such people need to pay more taxes in order to support this great nation they need to stop trying to shift this burden towards the job creators.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270229 - 04/24/14 03:32 PM Re: Funding the government [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15756
i am not in a position to provide links, but i think the first step in this discussion is exploding the myth of the 'job creator.' An exceedingly small segment of the 1%ers actually 'create' any jobs whatsoever. More often, actually, they are responsible for costing them. The few entrepreneurs who do create such jobs usually come from the middle class.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#270231 - 04/24/14 03:51 PM Re: Funding the government [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
From wiki on Roman Empire

Low taxes helped the Roman aristocracy increase their wealth, which equaled or exceeded the revenues of the central government. An emperor sometimes replenished his treasury by confiscating the estates of the "super-rich", but in the later period, the resistance of the wealthy to paying taxes was one of the factors contributing to the collapse of the Empire.[32]

Basically it is a very old dynamic where the wealthy feel abused to be asked to pay taxes. The wealthy compete with each other. For status. Which requires that they become ever more wealthy.

Corporate persons do not fight in wars. And mostly they do not want to pay taxes either

As has always been the case. The rich and powerful are able to influence policy in self serving ways. Burdens are shifted towards those with less influence.

And by the way. The roman elite figured out the whole outsourcing arrangement long ago. The wealthy built empires on slave labor and indentured servitude

I could show much of the same thing to be true in medieval. Europe. The nobility basically told the king to tax others

On and on it goes. And we really delude ourselves if we imagine that such income disparities must collapse because they are unsustainable. This is a remarkably persistent and also durable arrangement. General welfare may be reduced in this arrangement. But things work out very nicely for those on the top
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270232 - 04/24/14 03:56 PM Re: Funding the government [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Nwp
Regarding job creators
Who actually creates jobs is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion. The whole issue of being a job creator has nothing to do with facts. It has to do with maintaining an expedient meme.

Facts. Facts. We don't need no steenking facts

It is blatantly obvious that corporations and hedge fund managers have zero concern about jobs. They are concerned about profits. Period. End of story.

If the last 5 years has shown anything. It has certainly shown that Wall Street profits do not translate to jobs. I think that is pretty damn clear


Edited by Ardy (04/24/14 04:02 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270253 - 04/25/14 03:08 AM Re: Funding the government [Re: Ardy]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12987
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ardy

As has always been the case. The rich and powerful are able to influence policy in self serving ways. Burdens are shifted towards those with less influence.
I could show much of the same thing to be true in medieval. Europe. The nobility basically told the king to tax others

On and on it goes.



The financial "droit du seigneur" is so openly visible and so shameless in this society at this late date that, in any other historical epoch the serfs would be delivering their maiden daughters to the manse of the lords.

Therefore I have difficulty believing that they who "do the first f--king" were ever the ones being f--ked. Pardon my French.
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