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#270296 - 04/26/14 09:30 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Rick
My thoughts on social conditioning were not intended to accept or excuse racism

My aim was to better understand what is going on since in my experience problems that are misunderstood result in misdirected solutions

Propsing bundy as a hatefull bigot allows his supporters to still champion his other ideas and say that his bigotry is coincidental. Also many people will see this guy and think that he does not seem hateful. And therefore he is not a hateful bigot but a man incapable of maintaining a political correct veneer. But still an admirable patriot never the less.

And IMO this is a more general problem with racists. They genuinely do not feel themselves to be. Racist. They consider themselves as victims of liberal suppression of free speech. Increasing accusations of hatefulness does not reduce the problem. A problem of which they themselves are in deep denial.

IMO the problem is not so much this bundy and his ilk are racists. The problem is that they are not aware that they are racists.

Further
When I look closely at bundys comments.
I see a man who is saying something that is grossly insensitive
Offensive as his comments are they Are not really filled with race hate

Instead it seems to me to map on to conservative memes bout the corrosive nature of the welfare state

Of course his free cattle grazing is an expedient benefit of his hatred of big government and his views are internally inconsistent on many levels but at his core I see him as a person who has bought into the whole john birch meme about over reaching federal government.

It also just happens that this smaller government meme happens to carry with it great benefits for idealists like the Koch brothers. The same way that bundy just happens to get free grazing by rejecting gov ownership of the land


Edited by Ardy (04/26/14 10:03 PM)
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#270298 - 04/26/14 09:59 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41192
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
The problem is that they are not aware that they are racists.

...and that is due to their upbringing by their parents, relatives, and friends - aka social conditioning. RWing media only reinforces what they are taught which making them think that what they are saying is normal and acceptable.
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#270299 - 04/26/14 10:17 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12007
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ardy
The problem is that they are not aware that they are racists.

...and that is due to their upbringing by their parents, relatives, and friends - aka social conditioning. RWing media only reinforces what they are taught which making them think that what they are saying is normal and acceptable.


Yes
They are the enablers
The people who help maintain the rationAle that opposition to racism is just liberals stifling free speech and attacking harmless conservatives who refuse to adopt politically correct jargon.

. This is exactly the dynamic that I saw on liberty dwells forum. I am not about calling anyone a racist. I do not know what is in their heart or how they act. But it is certainly true that ld forum is awash. Offensive racist rhetoric that is excused as freedom of speech and an unwillingness to conform to liberal defined ideas of political correctness.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270300 - 04/26/14 10:23 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13654
Loc: Whittier, California
New rule: If you don't recognize the US government, you don't get to claim constitutional grounds for what you do. Therefore, if you openly carry semi-automatic rifles and threaten to shoot law enforcement, you are a terrorist. Nothing more, nothing less.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#270301 - 04/26/14 10:37 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41192
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Offensive racist rhetoric that is excused as freedom of speech and an unwillingness to conform to liberal defined ideas of political correctness.

I know, I deal with the very same at G's. Except G (...and Fox) is no longer supporting Bundy and the Wingnuts are asking why. I mean, if you have to ask... LOL
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#270303 - 04/26/14 10:57 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8997
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
As so often happens, we get way far into a discussion only to find that the misalignment of a definition of a word or two fuels any disagreement that might be extant.

Basic racism is, to me, the pre-judgement of a race based on stereotypes that indicate the other is less than the judger. From there we can assign degrees of racism, with hateful behavior being really bad and Bundy-like racism being relatively benign (the kind most folks learn to stifle).

I grew up with some racist conditioning, which was completely abstract in that my Idaho community was virtually lily white and therefor had no basis in real experiences. My Dad liked to bitch about the n_____rs and how bad they were for America, send 'em back to Africa, etc. I said the same things.

The first black kid I met was at the age of 15 in 1969 in a Forest Service summer work program called the Youth Conservation Corps. I was shooting some hoops alone and the kid came up, 14 years old and much smaller than me, and was all over telling me about his admiration for Jerry West (my name is West), which I think he was projecting on me. So we spent a half hour trading the ball and shooting, and I felt no racism at all.

Since then, I still have not lived in places where there are many black folks. But I have noticed that when I meet somebody of that race, if they talk like me I barely notice that their skin is much darker and their features are different, but when they have the stereotypical inner city black persona going on, I am pretty uncomfortable.

I am of the opinion that my discomfort is due more to culturalism than to racism.

Is it the same thing? I don't know.
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#270304 - 04/26/14 10:59 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8997
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
New rule: If you don't recognize the US government, you don't get to claim constitutional grounds for what you do. Therefore, if you openly carry semi-automatic rifles and threaten to shoot law enforcement, you are a terrorist. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sounds reasonable. No vote, too, right?
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#270305 - 04/26/14 11:28 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13654
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
"...but when they have the stereotypical inner city black persona going on, I am pretty uncomfortable.

I am of the opinion that my discomfort is due more to culturalism than to racism.

Is it the same thing? I don't know."


---Depends on their actions.
Unlike you I've spent decades living in "hoods" of every variety known to modern America.

Even in the worst places I've managed to find bright spots and the funniest part is, it was the same inner city thug patois jangling in my ear.

It all boiled down to education and upbringing. To the uninitiated it would definitely be hard to spot the difference but the takeaway from all of that is the fact that in all my eighteen years in Venice and Culver City (both heavy duty gang areas immortalized at the time in the gang movie "Colors") I never got robbed, shot or even beat up a single time.

And I'm most definitely a white guy.
And during that period I was also a coke addict...WITH MONEY.

I DID get shot at however. Once by a CB radio toting angry white guy, missed my gut by (according to eyewitnesses) less than two inches and twice while filming the L.A. Riots downtown in 1992.
(Both rounds hit my camera but would have hit my head if not for the camera being there)

Lack of education, crappy upbringing, no family core, no opportunities, no hope and no future combine to create a person who would just as soon shoot at you as look at you, just as soon rob you for five bucks like it's nothing.

Thus I would never expect someone with your background to be able to tell the difference so I hesitate to automatically equate your natural instinct for self-preservation with racism.
I can only tell you what I learned from my own experiences.

People tend to doubt me when I talk about this stuff, and I guess they're free to do so but all I know is, I don't feel compelled to be anyone but who I am around people in that group. For some reason they don't seem as put off by me and who and what I am as one might expect vice versa.

My eyes and ears are well tuned to spot sham, scam and criminal intent in any language, street or otherwise.



Edited by Jeffery J. Haas (04/26/14 11:31 PM)
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
Leon Russell - Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#270310 - 04/27/14 01:25 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: Highlands, Tx
it is a question of grammar

i suspect the correct way is paramount to the arbitrary way you would like

the Constitution offers certain protections without regard for any prior or future actions on the part of any individuals, therefore, when any person who decides the federal government is not legitimate, it does not make it so, and the Constitution is mandated to protect even these foolish folks

i think what you are suggesting is why would someone who believes the federal government is illegitimate remain in America? but there is an obvious answer .... to remain under the protection of the very thing they abhor
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#270313 - 04/27/14 03:10 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41192
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
...the Constitution offers certain protections without regard for any prior or future actions on the part of any individuals, therefore, when any person who decides the federal government is not legitimate, it does not make it so, and the Constitution is mandated to protect even these foolish folks

i think what you are suggesting is why would someone who believes the federal government is illegitimate remain in America? but there is an obvious answer .... to remain under the protection of the very thing they abhor

Great post rporter314. Bow
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