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#270121 - 04/21/14 04:32 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Just to be a little more clear on the land ownership issue

The land in question used to belong to Mexico.

But we fought a war with Mexico and the us gov
The fed gov expended resources to fight this war
Soldiers from all over the nation fought And died in this war
At the time there were no states or counties in this area

So at what point did this land that we spent fought and died for become state or county property

Also. I am curious to learn why it is that the gov does not continue to own 99% of states like California that were similarly acquired. Enormous amounts of good land has been transitioned from public to private ownership. People certainly could have homesteaded on this rich land as they did elsewhere. The question being. Why the apparent lack of interest in this land.

Also I note that the bundy actually own a ranch that is their own land. If the us gov is keeping all this land for themselves. How did this privately owned ranch come into existence. .
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270122 - 04/21/14 04:36 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Btw
I read an interview of bundy where he rejects any federal authority whatsoever. Essentially he denies that the fed gov has any valid existence or authority. Other than fighting a war for him to graze his cattle there
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#270124 - 04/21/14 05:11 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43287
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Btw
I read an interview of bundy where he rejects any federal authority whatsoever. Essentially he denies that the fed gov has any valid existence or authority. Other than fighting a war for him to graze his cattle there

Bundy is your typical domestic terrorist T-Bagger.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#270127 - 04/21/14 05:42 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6517
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Just to be a little more clear on the land ownership issue

The land in question used to belong to Mexico.

But we fought a war with Mexico and the us gov
The fed gov expended resources to fight this war
Soldiers from all over the nation fought And died in this war
At the time there were no states or counties in this area

So at what point did this land that we spent fought and died for become state or county property

Also. I am curious to learn why it is that the gov does not continue to own 99% of states like California that were similarly acquired. Enormous amounts of good land has been transitioned from public to private ownership. People certainly could have homesteaded on this rich land as they did elsewhere. The question being. Why the apparent lack of interest in this land.

Also I note that the bundy actually own a ranch that is their own land. If the us gov is keeping all this land for themselves. How did this privately owned ranch come into existence. .


1) If the Fed own almost 90% of the physical property a state contains, how can that state be considered an independent state?

2) I do not advocate military action by anybody except for the military. The Posse Comitatus Act forbids the US military from being use inside our border except during a national emergency. These people may have been called "agents" as a way to get past the letter of the law, but they are, in effect, an armed service of the Federal government. They could have called on the governor to call up national guard troops to remove the cattle and it would have been ignored by everybody except the local press, but instead they wanted to make as much noise as possible and got exactly what they wanted. They just didn't anticipate the amount of support that Bundy would get both locally and nationally.

3)Where did I say that I thought that the people who took up arms were acting properly? As a matter of fact I stated that I thought that the situation would have escalated out of control had the Fed not pulled their people out. While I blame the Fed for creating the situation, I in no way advocate violence. What I advocate is common sense. Arrest Bundy, put him on trial and convict him.

This situation sucks! It never should have come to this, but it did. I blame both sides, and while I may be sympathetic to Bundy because I do not believe that the Fed should be allowed to control the majority of area within any state, Bundy is a deadbeat and should be brought to trial. There is no straight line path to enlightenment in this story. It meanders along a twisted path full of ulterior motives and cynical thoughts. Personally, I believe that there was money to made off of the land, probably shady money that political interests did not want to become public.

In the end, it is always about politics. Events such as this is one is why politics are always so fascinating.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#270128 - 04/21/14 05:44 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6517
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: california rick
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Btw
I read an interview of bundy where he rejects any federal authority whatsoever. Essentially he denies that the fed gov has any valid existence or authority. Other than fighting a war for him to graze his cattle there

Bundy is your typical domestic terrorist T-Bagger.


Bundy is a moron, but there is no law against being a moron.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#270130 - 04/21/14 05:56 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
CHB-OG

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 43287
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

I will just be one of the godless socialists who will be first against the wall when the T-Bagger's revolution comes.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#270131 - 04/21/14 06:39 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 10335
Loc: One of the Mexicos
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
In the end, it is always about politics. Events such as this is one is why politics are always so fascinating.

Not politics - law enforcement. Not civil disobedience - armed resistance to the enforcement of law. Most law enforcement types pack heat, do they not? Are you one a them commies who think the cops should be unarmed?

Are my questions too hard to engage? We made a little headway on the question of federal land ownership, but I'd say the answer to my question of you is that you still aren't persuaded that the land in dispute is legitimately owned by the federal government. But you have no evidence that it is not.

I am most interested in why you support welfare when it comes to a prick in Nevada grazing cows on our property, hugely subsidized even before he went all deadbeat on the rent. Does that square with Republican fiscal principle? (PS; this is a political question, so here's where you can enjoy the discussion).
_________________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”
– R. Buckminster Fuller

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#270132 - 04/21/14 07:01 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12010
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Ma
So you are saying that the statehood of Nevada is a fiction and they shoulld return to being a territory. Or are you saying that the fed should transfer all property to the state of Nevada. Perhaps Nevada can buy this land from the Feds. Probably the citizens of Nevada will pay higher taxes to buy the land so bundy can graze for free

Ma
You still did not identify the mechanism by which us gov should divest itself of this land. Land which we paid for with a war

Nor did you clarify why other states that started out like Nevada transition to largely private ownership. What is so specially different in the case of Nevada
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270135 - 04/21/14 10:46 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6517
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Ardy
Ma
So you are saying that the statehood of Nevada is a fiction and they shoulld return to being a territory. Or are you saying that the fed should transfer all property to the state of Nevada. Perhaps Nevada can buy this land from the Feds. Probably the citizens of Nevada will pay higher taxes to buy the land so bundy can graze for free

Ma
You still did not identify the mechanism by which us gov should divest itself of this land. Land which we paid for with a war

Nor did you clarify why other states that started out like Nevada transition to largely private ownership. What is so specially different in the case of Nevada



As can be seen from the link below, land ownership in the West is dominated by the Fed. In reality I don't care how to transition it to state management, but it should belong to the state and the state should be able to decide how the land is used inside their borders.

Take a look at the link and look at the percentage of fed land.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/property/2011/04/who-owns-the-west.html
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#270136 - 04/21/14 10:50 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: logtroll]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6517
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
In the end, it is always about politics. Events such as this is one is why politics are always so fascinating.

Not politics - law enforcement. Not civil disobedience - armed resistance to the enforcement of law. Most law enforcement types pack heat, do they not? Are you one a them commies who think the cops should be unarmed?

Are my questions too hard to engage? We made a little headway on the question of federal land ownership, but I'd say the answer to my question of you is that you still aren't persuaded that the land in dispute is legitimately owned by the federal government. But you have no evidence that it is not.

I am most interested in why you support welfare when it comes to a prick in Nevada grazing cows on our property, hugely subsidized even before he went all deadbeat on the rent. Does that square with Republican fiscal principle? (PS; this is a political question, so here's where you can enjoy the discussion).


I did not say I supported him, what I said was that I was somewhat sympathetic but thought he should be arrested and tried. Also, this was a case of civil disobedience, almost by definition. The fact that is was committed by a moron who has no clue doesn't change the fact.

Why is the BLM armed? That is really the ultimate question. Is everybody in the Fed armed and incompetent?
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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