Current Topics
ESPN Pulls Announcer Robert Lee From Virginia Game Because of His Name
by Golem
Today at 03:21 PM
NASA to Stop a Doomsday Supervolcano by Stealing its Heat
by logtroll
Today at 12:37 PM
Charolottesville
by Spag-hetti
Today at 04:39 AM
Trump Forum
by pondering_it_all
Today at 12:49 AM
No Longer Felony: Oregon Makes Possession Of Heroin, Cocaine, Meth misdemeanor
by pondering_it_all
Today at 12:40 AM
10 Plans Hitler Would Have Put In Motion If The Nazis Had Won
by Spag-hetti
Yesterday at 11:44 PM
Round Table for August 2017
by pondering_it_all
08/21/17 11:10 PM
The Passing Parade: Obituaries: 2017
by Golem
08/21/17 06:56 PM
The 27th Day
by Golem
08/21/17 03:58 PM
Washington's farewell address
by NW Ponderer
08/20/17 06:08 PM
USC mascot under scrutiny for having name similar to Robert E. Lee's horse
by pondering_it_all
08/20/17 01:52 AM
Cultural iconography
by pondering_it_all
08/20/17 01:28 AM
Hyde: Is Stanton the legit HR king if he hits 62? Even he wonders | Commentary
by Golem
08/18/17 07:00 PM
Trump resurrects tall tale about General Pershing and Muslims after Barcelona te
by jgw
08/18/17 06:51 PM
OJ Simpson Pop-Up Museum To Open In Chinatown
by Golem
08/18/17 04:09 PM
Forum Stats
6241 Members
57 Forums
16019 Topics
276241 Posts

Max Online: 282 @ 05/29/08 05:08 AM
Google Adsense
Page 21 of 25 < 1 2 ... 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 >
Topic Options
#270564 - 05/09/14 07:35 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
I never saidthere were no leaders

Radical islam has leaders.
Does that help address the issue?

Does calling then a gang get us anywhere

Yes.
Many of the people at bundy ranch have behaved outside the law

But if we arrest the law breakers does that really address the problem


And by the way the guy on the bridge with a sniper rifle deg
Definitely does need to be arrested





Edited by Ardy (05/09/14 10:39 PM)
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270567 - 05/09/14 11:37 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
If this were a black street gang
We would have gang abatement strategies
We would be trying to figure out why kids join gangs
How we could get people out of gangs
How to keep kids from joining in the first place
We would have community outreach programs

But in this case the complexity of our response is to call them criminal. Gangs
End of story

Correct?
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270568 - 05/10/14 12:18 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   content


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12576
Loc: Whittier, California
The broader problem isn't really all that broad, Ardy.
Here it is in a nutshell:

The ARMY (and NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, AIR FORCE) is composed of ENLISTED or CONSCRIPTED RECRUITS, SOLDIERS and OFFICERS, all of whom have sworn a solemn oath to uphold and defend the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The POLICE is composed of SWORN PEACE OFFICERS who have also sworn an oath to uphold and enforce THE LAWS of the United States of America and the laws of their particular locality or jurisdiction and to promote LAW AND ORDER while serving and protecting THE PEOPLE.

That is the reason WHY ARMY, NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, AIR FORCE members wear insignia, hold ranks and follow ORDERS. Those orders ultimately come (down through the chain of command) from the COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

That is why police wear badges, which signify a form of AUTHORITY.
These forms of authority are duly sanctioned by all branches of government, via the people and their duly elected representatives in Congress, and their duly elected representatives in city, state and local government.

Now, all that having been said, I fail to see where ANY of these ass clowns are authorized by anybody.
Someone please point to where they get their authority from.
Till I see that I'm saying, "Yeah dipshit, pull me over or checkpoint me, make my day, sucker."

Simple as that, it's no different than some guy down the street (who delivers pizzas for a living) driving a white Ford Crown Victoria with light bars, sirens, radio antennas and who attempts to pull me over or detain me.

Fake cops, fake soldiers, fake law enforcement and fake oaths, but I swear to you they will spill REAL blood sooner or later and it will be the blood of an innocent person or a REAL soldier or sworn peace officer.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

Top
#270569 - 05/10/14 12:45 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8571
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I'm game for discussing alternatives to enforcing on these guys, or at least to think about what's gone wrong and strategies to avoid the obvious downward spiral of this sort of thing.

But I confess, I don't have any ideas. It seems to me that humanity has this cyclical thing where the crazy goes batshit ever so often and we get to have periods of violence and bloodshed.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
#270572 - 05/10/14 01:37 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
I agree the check points are bogus
And need to be stopped

This is on local law enforcement imo
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270573 - 05/10/14 01:49 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Log
I did not suggest an either or alternative to enforcement

Gang abatement doesnot mean that you stop criminal enforcement
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270574 - 05/10/14 02:30 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Ardy]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8571
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Enforcement, or alternative to enforcement, this scenario appears to me to be a downward spiral with an elusive upside.

The perps are not conforming to rational mentations, and probably will not. There seems to be a gamble forming based upon how many of the irrationals there might be who are willing to engage in violent resistance to legitimate authority.

If the first actors are dealt with through enforcement of laws, will that defuse the "movement", or stimulate more participation? Will they be perceived as martyrs, or criminals, and by what percentage of the general population?

How do we judge if this is a minor blip, or if it will be a plunge into chaos?

If the issue you are pursuing is only whether we should attempt to maintain a civil demeanor in the face of insanity, or if it is okay to belittle the crazies with ridicule, I do not claim to know the best answer. But it can be an effective tool to marginalize and ridicule miscreants as a hedge against their success as martyrs, as an alternative to allowing them to become sacrificial heroes in the eyes of others who might be susceptible to their delusions.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
#270575 - 05/10/14 04:53 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Log
In my opinion the perps are a tiny fraction of the problem
They want to exercise leadership and I wonder if we are playing into their hands by treating them as leaders

Most of the illegality is of a nature where shooting and or forcible arrest is not really required to achieve an. objective. You can serve a warrant or charge someone you don't have to even arrest them. Give them a date to show up in court if they don't show up well you can Arestin at any time in the future six months to year two years from now you can have local law enforcement handle some of this like the illegal checkpoints this approach avoids we sentiment against the federal government. Just pick off these people one person at a time there is no particular rush is there

In the mean time I guess my point is that part of this whole charade has to do with public relations propaganda etc. and things work out better on that front if everything is handled in a scrupulously correct and appropriate way

From my perspective what I perceive from the postings on this thread is a simmering anger and these yahoos and in my opinion they deserve that. But unfortunately that sort of emotional reaction is exactly what they want. They want to provoke a over the top reaction that will demonstrate their thesis of a authoritarian nightmare government is out of control the way to defeat this strategy is to be boringly correct and in offensive.

They oppose the central government and want more power for the state and local authorities so take away the federal bogeyman. Force them to confront their violation of local laws and local authorities

If the federal government needs to act in this matter maybe they can focus on civil penalties like freezing bank accounts etc. after all that is a strategy that the government uses against Middle Eastern terrorists isn't it

Why do we need to be sucked into playing their game of provocation and confrontation give them a little Mohamed Ali rope a dope
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

Top
#270576 - 05/10/14 04:56 AM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   content


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12576
Loc: Whittier, California
In recent time, terrorist cliques like Al-Qaeda and its many sub-groups seem to follow a certain cycle.
They take the reins of power by violence while preaching a revolutionary message that sounds like an appeal to get back to basic fundamentals.

That "sounds sexy" over here, sounds inspiring over there.
Everyone likes to believe that they harbor a desire to get back to basics.
Here it seems to be Mom, Apple Pie, the Constitution. There it's good old fashioned Islam, "like our grandpappies practiced it".
Okay at any rate it most likely SOUNDS like that to the public.

So, the public accepts the little bit of broken plaster and a few bodies, thinking it's a healthy catharsis and they welcome the group over the seemingly corrupt government.
The message has credibility, even if it's only because our Ugly American approach is severely LACKING in its Westernized clumsiness.
And besides, it's Islam and you don't dare criticize ANYONE who claims to be acting under authority of Islam.

But bit by bit these groups tighten the reins and become more and more extremist and more violent.
Instead of relaxing after taking power, it seems to become a red meat addiction, they become addicted to blood and carnage, narrowing the definition of who is a true believer more and more.

Finally the public has had enough, and they eventually drive them out. Most times it takes the military but so far Al-Qaeda has failed to show long term staying power almost anywhere.
Not that it matters, their disruption is often good enough for their purposes.

Here however, I seriously doubt the American people would have stomach to tolerate very much domestic bloodshed of innocents, but I do believe in my heart of hearts that that is what it will take to turn the tide and I do believe that is where this is headed.

I honestly and seriously believe that groups like these WILL INDEED take over the reins of power in some small way and they will start killing.

And at that point the overwhelming majority of Americans will DEMAND action, swift and terrible, and final.

Any action PRIOR to the spilling of innocent blood will be playing right into their hands, and it will glorify them and make them martyrs and recruiting tools.

Sorry, we have to let the infection metastatize and spread some first. The boil has to come to a head before it can be lanced.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

Top
#270580 - 05/10/14 02:20 PM Re: Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8571
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I'd like to note that the whole Bundy issue has been all about the people and various property ownership perceptions and fantasies, and practically nothing has been "in the news" about the land and its function as a cow host. The BLM action was a result of a move to correct an inappropriate use of the landscape, but the resistance to the BLM is all about Bundy's "rights". The question that has not been asked is, does Bundy, or anyone else, have the right to abuse the land? And what benefit accrues that counterbalances the cost of impacting the land?

We Americans seem to have a blindness when it comes to objectively assessing the appropriateness of various uses of the planet, even to evaluating the actual lifecycle costs of doing a thing.

I was on a field trip last Monday up to a forest thinning project on Mt. Graham in southeastern Arizona. The fundamental concern is to prevent the mountain from having all its vegetation burned off in one big conflagration, as is happening all over the place these days. One of the presenters on the trip was a young PhD out of the University of AZ, who did his dissertation on the fire history/ecology of Mt. Graham.

The mountain is one of those very interesting "sky island" ecosystems, which rise out of a chaparral desert at 3,000' and transition through a range of vegetation types to spruce and aspen at the top around 10,600'.

Our fellow had a lot of information, but the most interesting bit was a show and tell around a piece of wood from a tree that sprouted in the late 1700's. In a more natural ecological fire regime, relatively low intensity fires occur as frequently as every 3-5 years, burning through grass and organic litter on the forest floor; or as infrequently as 300-400 years, depending on the vegetation type. Trees that are not killed by a fire are often scarred on one side, usually the uphill side where a ground fire is a bit more intense due to combustibles collecting there. A fire scar kills the cambium, or growth layer of cells, and over successive years the cambium next to the dead part starts to grow over it, making a bulge with a dead layer in between. fire scar history (not the Mt. Graham sample)

The fire scar history on the piece of wood was quite regular until 1863 (tree rings are a reliable tool for dating meteorological and other ecological events). That's when fire suppression on Mt. Graham began. The common understanding about fire suppression is that it began in 1910, after the catastrophic Big Burn in northern Idaho that pretty much launched the Forest Service and it's mission of putting out all forest fires. But on Mt. Graham the tree rings show that fire suppression started in the mid 1860's. The reason? Actually, there are two; the transcontinental railroads brought cows and soldiers. The cows quickly removed the fine fuels that carried the frequent non-catastrophic ground fires, and the soldiers removed the Indians who regularly set fires as a land management tool.

The humongous fires that we are experiencing in the recent decades, which are exponentially increasing in severity, are largely due to the introduction of cows and Americans (not native Americans, but true Americans) into the ecosystem. We have discussed somewhat the economics connected with Cliven Bundy as a welfare rancher, i.e. the federal subsidy of dirt-cheap use of the land that he and his family have received for a hundred years, plus the additional pittance that he has refused to pay on his lease for the last twenty years; but we have not accounted for the costs of fighting forest fires, or the loss of topsoil, or the loss of ecosystems that provide the planet with clean air and water, or the loss of species, or the loss of incredible beauty...

Just what property right allows Bundy and his kind, and all of the rest of us, to abuse the land for shallow personal gain?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
Page 21 of 25 < 1 2 ... 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 >

Who's Online
0 registered (), 26 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Albertpkr, kechua, burkha, bikrami, inekifoh
6241 Registered Users
A2