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#271471 - 06/11/14 02:45 AM Does gun carry protect?
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
One common Assertion is that if more people carried guns they would be effective first responders. Against loonies shooting people. Not Canadian loonies. The other kind

So in the recent Las Vegas shooting there were three people killed

Two armed police officers

And one citizen with a concealed carry weapon who tried to be a hero.

All three victims had guns
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#271478 - 06/11/14 06:07 AM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1626
Loc: Middle, USA
Wow. Hadn't even looked at it that way. Nice observation. Everybody else retreated. So this stand-your-ground thing might not be a good idea ... even if you ARE a good guy with a gun.
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Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#271483 - 06/11/14 12:10 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Spag-hetti]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8729
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
... So this stand-your-ground thing might not be a good idea ... even if you ARE a good guy with a gun.
Your thinking is flawed - the subject victims were all bad guys with guns. Two were cops, they're always bad, jack-booted oppressors, and all; the other guy was trying to thwart a righteous revolution by some real conservatives who were merely advancing their principles in the only way left open to them by our corrupt government.

Guns don't kill people, principles kill people.
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#271485 - 06/11/14 02:22 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15749
I give props to the citizen who tried to intervene. It takes nuts to move toward the sound of gunfire, and he deserves to be honored for his personal sacrifice. That said, statistically, the outcome was predictable. He was in possession of imperfect information and did not know that a) there were two perps, and b) they had already killed remorselessly. As was natural, he hesitated to use force, and that is where the killer had the advantage. She didn't hesitate. That is why good guys with guns usually lose.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#271486 - 06/11/14 02:33 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
And why Leo may seem hasty and excessive in their use of guns

Leo have been trained on the danger of hesitation.

And yes I respect the courage of this guy

Otoh there is a reason police spend so much time training
Someone does not become marshal Dillon just because he has a gun
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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#271490 - 06/11/14 05:42 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15749
I completely agree. The number of times someone "protecting their home" shoots a family member mistaking them for an intruder exceeds those that successfully protect their home from an intruder. There have been 1416 school shooting/murders since Sandy Hook and exactly how many were stopped by a bystander with a gun?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#271491 - 06/11/14 05:46 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15749
Correction, there have been 74 shooting incidents at schools or campuses in the US since Newtown, 16 fatal.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#271512 - 06/12/14 03:54 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6311
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
He was in possession of imperfect information

I routinely point this out when people say everyone should have an uzi

in order for the NRA scenario being effective, everyone carrying a gun must preemptively shot anyone they suspect of malevolence ... one may easily see the problems when considering a mall, a school, a police station, a gun shop, etc

i really love the picture i have of teachers pointing guns at everyone while lecturing
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#271514 - 06/12/14 04:39 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15749
I am always careful to be clear on my gun-related posts, because I do believe in the (non-second amendment) right to keep and bear arms, but... virtually all of the gun-proponent arguments are neither logically, legally, grammatically, nor empirically sound. If rationality were to infuse their discussion, I think they would have strong public support.

"Open" and "universal" carry arguments are just silly. Given the number of a) accidental discharge incidents, b) mistaken identity shootings, c) good samaritan fatalities, and d) bystander injuries, not to mention just plain
murders, it is empirically obvious to all but blatantly biased observers that the more people with guns, the more dangerous a place becomes. When trained law enforcement personnel have difficulty distinguishing and hitting their targets, really what chance does a poorly or untrained public have? I spent 30 years in uniform, training and shooting for qualification at least every year, and on a variety of weapons, and I know how hard it is to hit a target under stress. Most of the public has no idea. So, too, with "open carry", especially with assault rifles. The only point of doing it is to intimidate the public, and that is most assuredly not a legitimate purpose or "right."

Gun possession, like every other right, has limitations, and should. Those limitations should be rational and limited, and legitimate to a public purpose - for example banning firearms from courthouses - and taken with a sensitivity toward the legitimate interests of individuals. But arguments in opposition need to follow the same ground rules.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#271517 - 06/12/14 05:17 PM Re: Does gun carry protect? [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12005
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
Yes I agree with nwp

I also support rights to gun ownership
But do not think unlimited gun collection is a constitutionally protected hobby
Nor do I think intended the nation to be constantly on the edge of armed insurrection
Nor do I think that it is factually true that the nation becomes safer as guns and gun carry becomes more pervasive
Nor do I think that hunters need access to the most powerful military style weapons.
_________________________
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel

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