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#275841 - 01/09/15 09:21 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Greger]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14285
Loc: Florida
The REASONS for the Revolutionary War are listed in The Declaration of Independence. Firearms control, while it may be among them in regards to the Natural Rights enumerated, is not mentioned.

Never hurts to re-read this to get a better idea of why the Revolution actually ocurred.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...sed_Declaration
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#275842 - 01/09/15 09:35 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8892
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
His Hawkness got me to examining the language of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights a bit closer.

Here's the gunz right: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I'm with Hawkie, the framers were pretty smart and chose their words carefully. But this statement has always been less than clear to me, especially if we are to take away that this is describing a right to have arms particularly for personal protection from an oppressive government.

First of all, it leads in with the context of a well regulated Militia - well regulated usually means conforming to a set of rules for make-up and behavior, and Militia means a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency (being necessary to the security of a free State). It is clear that this Right is to make sure that civilians can keep weapons for the purpose of forming a regulated support force for the State.

It does not say anything about complete freedom to own weapons with no regulation; "shall not be infringed" simply indicates that banning the ownership of weapons that could be used within a well regulated military support group will not be allowed.

What is apparent is that the framers were not clever enough in their construction of this Right to have anticipated the crazy spin that the paranoid mind can put upon a statement to make it into something that was never intended.


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#275844 - 01/09/15 09:55 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8892
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Further thoughts under the limited government concept, and the "enumerated powers" mindset that government is only about defense...

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

... a more perfect Union... looks like intent to work together as a community and not a bunch of lone hawks.

... establish Justice... sorely needed to keep anarchy at bay.

... provide for the common defence... notice it doesn't say individual defence.

... promote the general Welfare... that's not very limited in scope.

... secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity... certainly obviates maximizing the next quarter profits while externalizing social and environmental costs.

Here is what the Constitution says about the governments general powers just before listing of some specific powers:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

...to pay the Debts and provide for the common defence and general Welfare of the United States... that's not unclear, and the last listed specific power is:

...To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof....

Common Defence and providing for the general Welfare are the stated functions of the U.S. government, according the the Constitution. That's not a very limited beginning, in my estimation.
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#275847 - 01/09/15 11:04 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: logtroll]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
This article is what I PM-ed to Hawk. I had posted it here before awhile ago so decided to just send it to Hawk.

Upon reflection I decided to repost it here. It is a very worthwhile read for those who might have missed it:

Link
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#275848 - 01/09/15 11:32 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Ken Condon]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
And there is this underlying sub-story that rarely-if ever-gets discussed. That of gun toting young urban (read black and Hispanic) gangstas who have the weapons and intend to use them only against their human competitors. On the other side you have the almost exclusively white and generally law abiding rural hunters.

You can throw into that mix the almost exclusively white gun fetish types, and while they are an extremely odd species from my viewpoint, they are generally law abiding and pose little danger to their fellow humans. They are mainly just interested in polishing off and shooting their stiff and gleaming rods.

Then of course you have the almost always white mentally ill angst ridden teen or young adult that seems to go mashugana ever year or so. This species causes turmoil for awhile then it all dies down. So to speak.

A fine stew all of this makes.


Edited by Ken Condon (01/09/15 11:34 PM)
Edit Reason: wurdz
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#275850 - 01/10/15 12:45 AM Re: gunz yet again [Re: logtroll]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
notice it doesn't say individual defence.

It also doesn't include defence along de US southern border Charles Krauthammer is always proposing.

But I suppose de-fence is for a different thread.


Edited by Ken Condon (01/10/15 02:39 AM)
Edit Reason: clarification
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#275851 - 01/10/15 01:15 AM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Ken Condon]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8892
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
Quote:
notice it doesn't say individual defence.

It also doesn't include defence along the US southern border Charles Krauthammer is always proposing.

But I suppose defence is for a different thread.
I was just bein' co-loki y'all, an' true to da documentary of origin, ya yanker.

I did read yer linkered article, and saw that not so long ago the Prez a the NRA agreed with me that the Big C doesn't say anything about the rights of personal gun ownership for non-militia purposes, one way or t'other.
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#275852 - 01/10/15 01:32 AM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Ardy]
Ardy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 12006
Loc: San Jose, Ca USA
pervasive gun ownership in the colonies had nothing to do with individual self defense

see my thread on the militia

gon ownership was required as a form of collective defense
primarily in response to the external threats as a result of the 100 year long french and indian wars

although th militia was not tremendously effective. t was the traditional defense
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#275869 - 01/10/15 08:31 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Ardy]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3821
Loc: Eugene, OR
This is what the founding fathers intended for all good Americans to possess and what the second amendment is really all about.

Or as Carl Showalter kept repeating in the movie Fargo-- after Gaear Grimsrud caps the cop--Whoa Daddy--Whoa Daddy!

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#275871 - 01/10/15 11:24 PM Re: gunz yet again [Re: Ardy]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14285
Loc: Florida
Atsa prime piece of ordinance there, kenny boy. if I had one a them mounted on the roof and computer controlled I wouldn't be worried about a thing.

But come to think of it I aint much worried about a thing and I don't even own a firearm.

Lone thinks that makes me a slave. I be thinkin' he's the one enslaved by his paranoid ideology. But he has that right and I'd fight to the death to be sure he keeps that right. (or at least until I got hurt)
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