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#287080 - 04/23/16 04:43 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40771
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Originally Posted By: bigswede
Thus far, what I've learned from science is that the alarmist claims are not supported by basic knowledge of nature nor by recorded observations.

...and of course, you have documented evidence to support this assertion, right? coffee
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#287081 - 04/23/16 04:57 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13886
Loc: Florida
I'm not quite sure how you make the leap from...
Quote:
Going from killing whales and seals for their fat to make lamp oil or stearin candles, to produce kerosene lamp oil and paraffin candles from crude oil, would be a good and appropriate example of successful free market fixing environmental problem.

To...
Quote:
On the other hand socialism, sovietism and the corporate fascism produced a lot of polluting, besides war.

Some folks went out of business and suffered when we switched from whale oil to kerosene. Some folks profited. It's just the way capitalism works. But you know that.
Do you feel there is no profit to be made in sustainable energy sources? No good to be reaped from them?
I suspect we will never completely break free from fossil fuels. You just about can't beat it when it comes to transportation. But for generation of electricity the alternate sources can become very profitable.

You keep coming back to the idea that "freedom" would be lost if governments attempt to lower our overall carbon footprints. I can't quite buy into this since most governments are pretty much in the pockets of big oil corporations and practically every government's energy policy revolves around how and where they will get enough fossil fuel to supply the burgeoning demand for more and more energy. I imagine one day we will see Big Oil become Big Solar, Big Wind, and moving into the electrical generation field because that might well be where the Big Money is in years to come. Government is pretty much controlled by the "free" market, not so much the other way around.
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#287082 - 04/23/16 05:15 PM Re: Global warming [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


Originally Posted By: bigswede
Thus far, what I've learned from science is that the alarmist claims are not supported by basic knowledge of nature nor by recorded observations.

...and of course, you have documented evidence to support this assertion, right? coffee

Others have documented this so well I didn't feel the need to. grin
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#287083 - 04/23/16 05:18 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40771
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: bigswede
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


Originally Posted By: bigswede
Thus far, what I've learned from science is that the alarmist claims are not supported by basic knowledge of nature nor by recorded observations.

...and of course, you have documented evidence to support this assertion, right? coffee

Others have documented this so well I didn't feel the need to. grin

Others, such as...

You know what "they" say: no link = opinion. smile , Hmm
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#287084 - 04/23/16 05:20 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6312
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Your statement was new sources and had nothing to do with the vagaries of the free market which does not have the sentience to determine which source would be most beneficial. The government leads in this respect because intelligent men, who are sentient, have deduced what the alternative sources are.

It is not about spelling .... it is about the logic - when you start with the premise everything the government does is evil, it limits what the results can be ..... in the case of your conclusions, you prefer anti-government results, because that is what you believe
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#287085 - 04/23/16 05:22 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40771
Loc: Puget Sound, WA



Originally Posted By: bigswede
...corporate fascism...

So Corporatism is right-wing in your view?
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#287086 - 04/23/16 05:37 PM Re: Global warming [Re: Greger]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
Greger
If you by profit from alternative (sustainable is not well enough defined to be used to describe the situation) energy sources mean money that's not subsidized, I'm in doubt. Not impossible, but far fetched.
If you by profit mean knowledge that can be learned from and perhaps even implemented in ways we today not know of, yes definitely. In that sense I would rather call the installations of alternative energy sources applied research. The profits and benefits will come later on. Very likely in new shapes.

I agree we will most likely not break free from fossil fuel the next 200 years. But it's proportion of the energy market will be lessened, especially for production of electricity.
Nuclear power probably is the main candidate for electricity on a big scale.
The transport sector is the big "problem" to adress the coming centuries.

It is more true of America that big oil controls governments. Although BP bought large areas of forests in Canada years ago.
In Europe, that has very little oil to offer at home to governments, except Norway and Great Britain, the energy companies are already much more diverse than their American counterparts or branches.
Hydro-electric, nuclear, coal, wind, solar, gas, biofuel is more often integral parts of the energy mix offered to customers. Free markets tend to do these transitions with less money drawn from taxpayers.
Although, as you pointed out with the whalers, some businesses will go under.


Edited by bigswede (04/23/16 09:00 PM)
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#287087 - 04/23/16 05:43 PM Re: Global warming [Re: logtroll]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
rick
I gave several names earlier, google them and you shall have lots of sources to check out.
No I'm still adamant corporatism and fascism are collectivist and monopolist. You know John D. Rockefeller was one of the first to be convicted under the then new anti-trust laws. Precisely for his aim and methods to reach monopoly in the oil market.
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#287088 - 04/23/16 05:46 PM Re: Global warming [Re: logtroll]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 321
rporter,
My experience with politicians and governments is not that they are intelligent or even sentient entities.

So no they are not capable to lead us better than the free market. Or in the words of Ringo Starr (ex Beatle) Everything the government touches turns to crud!
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#287089 - 04/23/16 08:21 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12987
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: bigswede
They have been so successful in narrowing the market that Caterpillar, the world's leading manufacturer of construction machines, is giving up putting their own engines in their machines. Now they buy from other manufacturers, depending on market (country).


Caught another one of your "truthy" observations.
Please stop...I know trucks better than you ever will, and a great many of them use Caterpillar engines. In fact CAT recently took a huge chunk of market share from Navistar (used to be IH) and will now manufacture a line of trucks made in Victoria, TX.

CATS earlier decision to stick with EGR instead of selective catalyst reduction is what caused their problems. SCR is a much cleaner system and IT IS A FACT that a cleaner diesel is a better running diesel in the long run.
I am not a fan of ALL diesel exhaust pollution systems but I understand how most of them work.
Your attempt to claim that CAT was pushed out of the on hiway market by some leftist conspiracy is laughable.
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