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#287162 - 04/25/16 08:47 AM Re: Global warming [Re: logtroll]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21134
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Urge us tot check this out

Postimg
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#287163 - 04/25/16 11:33 AM Re: Global warming [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6525
Loc: Highlands, Tx
all liberal lies

that is how easy it is to refute the facts
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ignorance is the enemy
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#287164 - 04/25/16 12:23 PM Re: Global warming [Re: rporter314]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8887
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: rporter314
all liberal lies

that is how easy it is to refute the facts

Ain't it the truth... or is it?
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#287165 - 04/25/16 01:11 PM Re: Global warming [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6525
Loc: Highlands, Tx
logT .... all conservatives know liberals lie or has this become a paradox
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#287166 - 04/25/16 02:03 PM Re: Global warming [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16233
Quick, look over there!

Well, I did. In detail. I followed nearly all of the links that Swede provided, and then looked at the source. What I discovered is that they are, largely, self-referential. If you go to "climate denial" at Wikipedia, you'll wind up with the same list of references. It's basically just a regurgitation of the (pretty short) list of denialist organizations, who, by the way, are funded by the same sources, and republish each other's work (to give it a patina of "peer review"). When you dig, you find there is little "there" there. What is it that Steven Covey says? "Always begin with the end in mind?" Or, in this case, "always end where you began."

It's not that science cannot be questioned (kinda the point of the scientific method), it's that the questioning has to be legitimate, and legitimated. What we have in this reference dump is grand conspiracy theory supported by conspiracy theorists. What are known in scientific circles as "crackpots and kooks." There are a lot of words there (God, so many words!) But, when you dig in, so little substance. I feel like I've eaten cotton candy! Now that you're properly distracted, let's make another unsubstantiated claim.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#287170 - 04/25/16 04:12 PM Re: Global warming [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 41039
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
It's not that science cannot be questioned (kinda the point of the scientific method)

Exactly smile

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
..it's that the questioning has to be legitimate, and legitimated.

Exactly smile

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
What we have in this reference dump is grand conspiracy theory supported by conspiracy theorists.

Conspiracy and conspiracy theory supported by conservatives?!? Say it's not so! coffee

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Now that you're properly distracted, let's make another unsubstantiated claim.

Ergo my request for scientific study refutals of global warming - I've yet to get one. Hmm
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#287173 - 04/25/16 05:32 PM Re: Global warming [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16233
Please note: I am perfectly willing to engage in a point-counterpoint discussion of issues regarding climate change and skepticism thereof. What I am unwilling to continue with is the spaghetti approach to argumentation: throw everything against a wall and claim that something stuck. As I opined earlier, that is what I have seen so far. So, Swede, give me "a point" of contention, with specific support (an argument, or supporting document) and I will happily entertain that point. Let's move from generic to specific. I'll allow that I come into the discussion with the belief that anthrogenic climate change does exist, but I am persuadable. I just need it to be persuasive.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#287174 - 04/25/16 05:56 PM Re: Global warming [Re: NW Ponderer]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 323
I liked Phil Hoskins' link to posting courtesy.

NWP
I also read your links to Maskin and those economic theories. They claim to be applicable to climate policy, but do not show how.

You claim to have read most of the links I gave, but you refute their findings and facts. Mostly because of circular arguments, I believe.

We most certainly make different interpretations of what we read there.

You place the burden of proof on the the realists who claim nature is OK until otherwise proven.
As I see it, those claiming CO2 is causing Global Warming that has to be adressed by lots of taxpayers money, have the burden of proof.
In my book they have to prove that:
a) CO2 causes harm to climate
b) we can counteract that harm by spending tons of money in Vegas (betting a lot of money with the hope chance will work in our favor.
c) restrict peoples freedom of choice
before I will agree with their claims. So far they have not proved anything. It's all theories and models, and they all fall sort of the mark.
I would feel dishonest if accepted unsubstantiated claims as truth or basis for policy decisions.


On the question of free markets not being able to distribute wealth. America and western Europe is the proof. Wealth is not evenly distributed, but not made unavailable by the authorities.
In the Soviet system distribution was solved by government regulated inadequate production, waiting in line, hoping there was bread to to buy at the counter and black market.
I prefer the free market system



Sorry for the editing, had to straighten out my reasoning. smile


Edited by bigswede (04/25/16 06:00 PM)
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#287175 - 04/25/16 06:01 PM Re: Global warming [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14273
Loc: Florida
I would like very much for bigswede to be right about this. But his links and opinions do nothing to sway me from accepting the actual science over the denial of it for purely political reasons. I've read the links, I've considered the sources, and I find them lacking in substance.

It's time we began backing away from fossil fuels, from petrochemicals, and from plastics derived from them. We have polluted our air and our water almost beyond redemption. We have the technology and the know how. The engineering is making terrific strides Hemp will soon be produced again and will replace the petrochemical plastics with products that are 100% biodegradable.

Thee is no reason for our civilization to be so completely dependent on a single industry.

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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#287176 - 04/25/16 06:09 PM Re: Global warming [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8887
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: bigswede

I prefer the free market system

Can you identify one?
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