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#289157 - 06/18/16 10:51 PM Guns, Terrorism & Politics
jgw Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 2055
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
This is about the Orlando killings and my thoughts. The left wants to blame it all on guns, the right wants to blame it all on Islamic Terrorists. I think, given what has been learned about the shooter, that the truth of the matter is that the shooter was bat sh*t crazy!

I do not believe that assault weapons, live grenades, etc. should be privately owned (I am not pro gun). In this particular incident, where the guns were purchased something like 12 days before the shooting would probably have helped in at least slowing down the shooter but doesn't mean he wouldn't have used a pistol, knife, or ax to kill with.


The president, when he addressed this one, mentioned mental healthcare in passing. None of the others, as far as I can tell, on either side, bothered with that. Its really a shame. Both sides have decided this is a political matter than one side can win so they are having at it. They are not helping! Our problems, with virtually all the recent mass shooting involved people who were, obviously and even clinically, insane. The drug companies seem to feel that they have solved the issue with drugs that the mentally ill do not like to take and tend to 'forget' to take. Them in charge have rejected any thought of making such pills with substances which will addict and, perhaps, even make the taker a bit happier (thereby assuring they take the meds). Virtually all states have now abandoned any thought of institutionalization. It has been estimated that somewhere between 30% and 40% of all homeless are mentally ill. Its also been estimated that something like 20% of our entire population needs some kind of mental healthcare.

So, our self declared leaders have decided to have the guns or terrorists discussion because they can 'win' something. I guess it doesn't really matter that what they are arguing about actually (to my mind) have little or nothing to do with the problem of crazy people deciding to kill a bunch of queers, children, women, strangers, etc. In several states mental health ombudsmen have been hired to help the mentally ill. I have heard that some council not to take the drugs (may not be true).

Still, I think its fair to say we have a Mental Health Problem - nationwide. Our leaders, instead of getting together and figuring out what to do about it are ignoring it to fight over nothing in the hope of keeping their jobs. I have no doubt that more shootings will occur and if they take the guns away then knives, hatchets, axes, and poison will do the trick.

The shooter, we have been told, thought the shootings to be kinda fun and laughed a lot. He also contacted folks, whilst slaughtering, to find out if he was getting media attention. This is a guy who, apparently, actually dated people from the club where it all happened, he was also a regular customer. He also claimed to be related to Osama Bin Laden as well as knowing several other 'leaders'. In other words this guy was not exactly sane.

Just saying..............

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#289158 - 06/18/16 11:42 PM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6449
Loc: Highlands, Tx
there is of course a fundamental flaw in your argument .... mentally ill folks are among the least violent people in society (not to say mental health is not an issue worthy of our attention)

Cain did not wait for a BGC or for guns to be invented .... there will always be people who will murder people

according to Hannity et al President Obama is responsible

the issue is more complex than pointing to scapegoat of choice
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#289161 - 06/19/16 03:08 AM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14103
Loc: Florida
I don't think there can be any denying that the shooter in this case, and most of the many other instances of mass shootings, were batsh*t crazy.
Addressing his nationality and the religion he was brought up with, and in which he was neither a proponent nor devout, does nothing to solve the problem.
On the other hand, making it difficult or impossible for him to acquire the weapon and the high capacity magazines to commit the crime makes a good deal of sense.

just sayin...
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#289164 - 06/19/16 03:37 AM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7768
Loc: North San Diego County
The obvious solution is not to let crazy people have guns. But that is very problematic: How exactly do you decide somebody is too crazy to have guns, and what would be the mechanism be to collect their guns if you do decide they are that disturbed. If you start giving gun owners yearly sanity tests, what percentage of NRA members would fail?

Is simply being such a gun nut that you join the NRA and collect a lot of guns an indication of a mental problem? How about the paranoid who believes the government is coming to take away his guns? Self-fulfilling prophesy?

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#289167 - 06/19/16 05:06 AM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14103
Loc: Florida
....and therein lies the rub, as they say.

My 22 year old tonight pointed out to me that Americans have proven that they aren't responsible enough to be allowed to own guns.

But. There's really no putting that genie back in the bottle. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there and more being made and sold daily. Did you know that annual ammunition sales in the U.S. tops 12 BILLION rounds? Enough ammunition every year to kill every man woman child and dog on the planet. In the U.S. alone. Every year.
You can't really stop a juggernaut like that. But you could slow it down by making certain types of firearms and high capacity magazines very hard to get.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#289170 - 06/19/16 07:35 AM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7768
Loc: North San Diego County
Maybe you can't do anything about all those guns, but we certainly could heavily restrict sales of ammunition. Not a single mention of ammunition in the Constitution! And bullets and shotgun shells both contain explosives we already strongly restrict.

Constitution doesn't mention black powder, more modern smokeless gunpowder, the primers that fire a modern bullet, cartridges, or bullets. It doesn't even mention lead balls used in flintlocks!

In one fell swoop, Congress could outlaw all of these and the gun nuts would have to resort to throwing their empty guns at "bad guys".

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#289186 - 06/19/16 05:24 PM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14103
Loc: Florida
A good point PIA. As many have said, guns are not the problem. There is nothing inherently dangerous about a gun until it's loaded.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#289211 - 06/20/16 03:35 PM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16104
Here Are The 4 Gun Proposals The Senate Is Voting On (Again)
Quote:
the Senate will take up four amendments Monday related to guns and terror — two from Democrats and two from Republicans.

Such a quick vote after a tragedy is not remarkable. Proposals were put forth — and rejected — right after the murders of children and teachers in Sandy Hook Elementary School 2 1/2 years ago. Bills very similar to those coming up for a vote now were actually taken up just one day after the mass killing in San Bernardino in December. They too failed. So there's little reason for optimism on the part of advocates of tougher gun laws this time around, when defeat is once again the most likely outcome for these latest proposals.

Still, for gun control advocates, it's important to force votes and to get members of Congress on the record.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#289218 - 06/20/16 05:07 PM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6449
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
it's important to force votes and to get members of Congress on the record

it is a meaningless exercise in futility
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#289221 - 06/20/16 05:57 PM Re: Guns, Terrorism & Politics [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 14103
Loc: Florida
Quote:
it is a meaningless exercise in futility
Today, yes. But in the future maybe not so much. With a Democratic Senate and a sympathetic Supreme Court we may be looking at some chance of coming to grips with an out of control fetishism of guns and the desire to use them.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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