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#289837 - 07/13/16 03:27 AM Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces?
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 256
'
Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces?

Quote:
Forbes magazine put the police purchases into perspective: “Pentagon donations to the police reached $532 million in 2012 and $449 million in 2013. The figure has already topped $750 million in 2014…. A new MRAP sells for somewhere between $500,000 and $700,000 but law enforcement agencies are picking up these valuable beasts for free through the 1033 program.”

This inexplicable hoarding of guns and ammo presents not just a threat to the citizens of the United States. It also presents a real problem for the police themselves who are increasingly now looked upon with fear and loathing by many people who believe the police no longer uphold the motto to “protect and serve.” Better to de-militarize the police forces and let the US Army keep their lethal toys for themselves.

.
_________________________
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans

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#289838 - 07/13/16 04:30 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12499
Loc: Whittier, California
Who? Depends on whether the Supreme Court makes a ruling on privatized law enforcement.
To the best of my knowledge, police officers must be SWORN public servants, and not employees of a privately held corporation. Their oath of office is sworn to the people.

But a hard right conservative ruling on a hypothetical case could put a land mine under that provision, and usher in a new era of privately owned cops with the same authority as police have today in their public role.

Once the Court says private po po are constitutional, it's all over far as I'm concerned.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#289839 - 07/13/16 04:44 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12499
Loc: Whittier, California
The word police comes from the Greek politia meaning government, which came to mean its civil administration. Police officers are those empowered by government to enforce the laws it creates.

Once the question is resolved in favor of privatized police having the same constitutional authority as public officers, nothing will stand in the way of privatized judiciary and privatized criminal justice.

Private Police: Mercenaries for the American police state

Quote:
"...what few realize is that these private police agencies are actually given their police powers by state courts and legislatures, which do not require them to act in accordance with the Constitution’s strictures or be accountable to “we the people.”


Simply put, if we allow the Pinkerton Era to be reborn, we can kiss all constitutional protections, what little is left of them, good-bye.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#289842 - 07/13/16 06:26 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40215
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

The Sovereign Citizens already have their militias. Everything will work out just dandy.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#289843 - 07/13/16 09:55 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: matthew
'
Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces?

Quote:
Forbes magazine put the police purchases into perspective: “Pentagon donations to the police reached $532 million in 2012 and $449 million in 2013. The figure has already topped $750 million in 2014…. A new MRAP sells for somewhere between $500,000 and $700,000 but law enforcement agencies are picking up these valuable beasts for free through the 1033 program.”

This inexplicable hoarding of guns and ammo presents not just a threat to the citizens of the United States. It also presents a real problem for the police themselves who are increasingly now looked upon with fear and loathing by many people who believe the police no longer uphold the motto to “protect and serve.” Better to de-militarize the police forces and let the US Army keep their lethal toys for themselves.

.



During the drafting of the 2nd amendment, the need for a militia was inspired, to a large and significant degree, by the fear of a slave uprising, as well as by the fear that Native Americans would actually want to stop the white Europeans from stealing their land. In fact, it was a crime to sell guns to Native Americans.

In the 60s, when the Panthers marched on Sacramento, guns in tow, Reagan and every right wing group, including the NRA, were screaming for gun control. We couldn't have Black people armed.
The KKK was a reaction to the fact that free Blacks could now shoot back.

Militarized police forces are the capitalist's response to the possibility that the actual people want to command their destiny.
They are a modern version of the KKK with all of the attendant racism and bigotry implied therein. Not only against Blacks but in order to suppress the poor, the young, and anyone else who still believes that they live in a democracy.
When the economic "ghettos" attempt to rebel, they will be ready.


Edited by Ezekiel (07/13/16 10:44 AM)
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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#289851 - 07/13/16 03:21 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15244
I think the "militarization" trope is greatly exaggerated. I've been involved with law enforcement and the national guard for most of my adult life. I understand both. The militarization argument is, I think, the result of lazy -and misguided- thinking. Here's a relatively balanced analysis from the Atlantic: How the War on Terror Has Militarized the Police, but it misses many points. This has been an ongoing process for decades. I've watched as departments went from revolvers to semiautomatics. And then as shotguns were replaced by ARs. But here's some other thing to consider:

1) Police forces in the United States are less militarized than in most other countries. We're hardly catching up.

2) We are asking our police forces to do more than ever before. This has been exacerbated by the war on terror (and before that by the war on drugs).

3) The bad guys are better armed and more vicious than ever before. Consider the shooter in Dallas, and other mass shootings, and the militia confrontations.

4) I've been present in a riot before (St. Louis). It is nearly as scary as combat, and even more chaotic. An under-equipped police force is vulnerable to being overwhelmed, and I've seen that too (Seattle WTO).

The blame is not all in the police or the government. We, as a society, have to take responsibility for our behavior, too.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#289852 - 07/13/16 03:36 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Surely you are joking? Or else you're drinking some weird stuff.
There have been countless articles written about this. And law enforcement IS to blame when they use military tactics or equipment on civilian populations.
And pray tell - which developed countries have a more militarized police than we do?
UK? Japan? France? Italy? Any one of the Scandinavian countries?
Lame excuse: we are asking them to do more than ever? No, we are asking them NOT to shoot innocent people.
Keeping guns out of the hands of the bad guys is what we should be concerned with, not escalating the armaments of the police. All that does is make the bad guys get even better weapons. You have heard of the arms race, I am sure.
Give me a break - who said we don't have to responsibility?
The problem is the police do not take responsibility for their actions. They lie and hide behind the uniform. They are not acting as police but as an occupying force.
Ask anyone who lives in a neighborhood where there are people of color, as I do.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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#289858 - 07/13/16 06:21 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: Ezekiel]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15244
"The word trope has also come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés in creative works." So, when you say it is written about "all the time" (particularly on the most left-wing of sites), we are in agreement. When you suggest I must be joking, you are being rather rude and dismissive. It makes me wonder if you considered the substance of anything that followed.

For example: Have you traveled to France? When I was there last (Before 9/11), the airports and many other public areas were patrolled by officers carrying automatic weapons. That is true elsewhere in Europe as well. In Panama every corner downtown was manned by an officer with a submachine gun. I.e., I know of what I speak. list of police firearms in the UK

The point is that our society is more militarized, so it should come as no shock that our law enforcement agencies are too. We can lament that development, but police departments reflect us, not the other way around. Donald Trump's success should demonstrate that.

What most of the "reportage" fails to take into consideration are those points I raised (which is why I raised them). Police defend use of surplus military weapons - Washington Times.

Similarly, how many military organizations outfit their soldiers with tasers? Bean bag guns? Non-lethal techniques are routinely taught to beat officers. In short, there are alternatives points.


Edited by NW Ponderer (07/13/16 06:26 PM)
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#289859 - 07/13/16 06:23 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40215
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Here's a relatively balanced analysis from the Atlantic: How the War on Terror Has Militarized the Police

Didn't our police departments become 'militarized' when they were sold excess Iraq War equipment because of government grants and stimulus monies in 2009?
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#289860 - 07/13/16 07:12 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
"The word trope has also come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés in creative works." So, when you say it is written about "all the time" (particularly on the most left-wing of sites), we are in agreement. When you suggest I must be joking, you are being rather rude and dismissive. It makes me wonder if you considered the substance of anything that followed.

For example: Have you traveled to France? When I was there last (Before 9/11), the airports and many other public areas were patrolled by officers carrying automatic weapons. That is true elsewhere in Europe as well. In Panama every corner downtown was manned by an officer with a submachine gun. I.e., I know of what I speak. list of police firearms in the UK

The point is that our society is more militarized, so it should come as no shock that our law enforcement agencies are too. We can lament that development, but police departments reflect us, not the other way around. Donald Trump's success should demonstrate that.

What most of the "reportage" fails to take into consideration are those points I raised (which is why I raised them). Police defend use of surplus military weapons - Washington Times.

Similarly, how many military organizations outfit their soldiers with tasers? Bean bag guns? Non-lethal techniques are routinely taught to beat officers. In short, there are alternatives points.


You're right I am being dismissive because I have never heard such nonsense in my life.
I lived in France for 3 years, post 9/11. I lived in a neighborhood that was heavily policed. But is was just that: policed. Not occupied. People knew who the police were, there was dialog. They were not armed to the teeth. You are speaking of something you know nothing about.
I lived in the UK for a year and a half after 9/11 and two years in the 80s when the strikes were all over. I never, then or recently, saw the police act in any way that was threatening or carrying weapons in neighborhoods where there was no reason to.
I never saw them pepper spray peaceful protesters. I never saw them shoot unarmed people of any race. They don't throw pregnant women on the ground. They don't beat people with clubs. I spent 2 days in the hospital for attending a protest in favor of the environment. It was peaceful and people were just sitting. So please, go sell this BS somewhere else.
There is complete and utter disregard for civilians. They shoot first, as if they were in combat.

In Europe they do not need to stop peaceful protests with tanks. Last I heard, that happened in China some years back. And here.
Don't be naive. You are trying to justify something that has no justification.
There is a militarization and if you don't see it it can only be because you don't want to. Just like climate change, racism, inequality, etc.
I lived in Brazil for many years, the police there are military police. The civil police force exists but they are pretty much irrelevant. The military police in Brazil were just like here. Only their excuse was that their training was military and not civil police.
It is not just the left wing, btw. Even Obama had something to say about it:

NBC

Not sure why you would even bring something like this up when it is pure poppycock.
Police are not soldiers. We have the armed forces for that.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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