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#289861 - 07/13/16 07:13 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15180
Let's try to keep the issues in perspective. Is the concern the type of equipment used? Is it the techniques used? Is it manpower? Is it the number of incidents? Have we considered the size of the police forces?

We do not live in a police state. I've been in police states. We don't compare. Should our society be more open? Yes. Do we have enforcement problems? Obviously. Is it the end of society as we know it? No.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#289864 - 07/13/16 07:40 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
It is all of those things. I have lived in police states. While we are not quite there, we are certainly careening in that direction. From my experience the policing that works best is that of a pacifying force, not one of aggression and hostility toward the civilian population.
The size of the police force tends to be proportional to the size of area policed.
Just to be clear - I am not against the police inasmuch as they are truly in the neighborhoods to actually help the residents. They are necessary and that is obvious.
But the shift from when I was a teenager to today in the tactics, hostility, level of intelligence, interest in their neighborhoods, capacity to descalate instead of escalate, readiness to pull a gun, etc. is very very very clear.
The fear of other has been instilled in them and in big cities such as the ones we have here, diversity is the rule, not the exception.
If they can't deal with that, or are afraid, then they're in the wrong profession.
And if they didn't know that the job was dangerous then... There is nothing one can say.
All the tanks and assault rifles in the world will not help them.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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#289882 - 07/14/16 12:46 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15180
Much of the impetus for the "militarization" of police was not inner-city strife, but the malignant growth of the militia movement. I was actually tangentially involved with one of these events:

"On April 21, 1985, after years of complaints by local citizens and informants, federal agents from the FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, as well as assorted state and local agencies, surrounded Zarephath-Horeb. After a three-day standoff, law enforcement officers entered the compound. This raid involved more than 300 law enforcement officers and resulted in the seizure of weapons, ammunition, explosives, gold, and thirty gallons of potassium cyanide. The CSA intended to use the potassium cyanide to poison the water supply of several large cities in order to expedite the coming of the second Messiah." Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord (CSA) - the name is no fluke.

My Army Reserve unit was tasked with providing support (a tank) to the raid because the militia organization was so well armed, and the law enforcement agencies didn't have anything that heavy. As it turned out, we didn't go - but it also turned out that they had anti-tank weapons.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#289883 - 07/14/16 01:29 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: NW Ponderer]
matthew Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 231
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

We do not live in a police state. I've been in police states. We don't compare.

Maybe it isn't a police state in the area where you live, but it is a police state in much of "the Land of the Free."

An acquaintance of mine is a frail, elderly woman who is a vegetarian Vegan, very gentle and mild. Three or four years ago, I met her and was astonished that she had heavy black-and-blue bruises all over her body. I thought she had been mugged. Instead, it turned out that her car had been stopped for a traffic infraction. She had a speaking impediment and a foreign accent. The cops beat her unmercifully. She had a seizure and had to be taken to a local hospital. Her clothes, soaked with blood, the cops made sure were destroyed at the hospital. They claimed that this frail vegetarian had attacked them with a steak knife! They did not retain this "steak knife" nor did they ever introduce it as evidence. The impounded car was collected by a mutual friend, and he searched it for this supposed weapon. Needless to say, it did not exist.

This woman was charged by the police for attacking them! They went so far as to plant a highly colored, and I am sure false, account of the incident in a local newspaper. A week before the trial, the cops came to her house and roughed her up for an imaginary infraction in order to intimidate her.

I attended her trial with a couple of like-minded friends in order to show that some people cared for her. Her "public defender" lawyer played footsie with the prosecution, and did not bring up any of the glaring contradictions in the police account of the incident. It was clear to me that he was protecting, not his "client", but the people who were providing him his salary. A couple of friends of the lady were called to the witness stand and did refer to the unlikelihood of the police (sworn) testimony. The judge completely ignored their statements and accepted without question the police account. The judge's only concession to reality was not to give the mistreated woman a prison sentence, but to put her on 18 months probation -- conditional on her good behavior!!

Yes, NW, I agree; "let's try to keep the issues in perspective"!!
.


Edited by matthew (07/14/16 01:46 AM)
_________________________
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans

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#289886 - 07/14/16 03:28 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3691
Loc: Eugene, OR
And why do I not believe your recitation?

Links please:
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#289887 - 07/14/16 03:40 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: Ken Condon]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3691
Loc: Eugene, OR
First of all Matthew I fully disclose my name and where I live. Unlike many on this board who are too afraid to do so. It is easily verifiable by a quick internet search if your might be predisposed.

I stand by any thing and everything I might say here-no matter how misguided it might be.

You have just laid out an outrageous statement that, if true, should be reason for the feds to get involved. If you could be so kind as to provide verifiable links regarding your very serious accusations-- we all would be most appreciative.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#289889 - 07/14/16 05:18 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12448
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer


4) I've been present in a riot before (St. Louis). It is nearly as scary as combat, and even more chaotic. An under-equipped police force is vulnerable to being overwhelmed, and I've seen that too (Seattle WTO).


Los Angeles 1992, Rodney King riots, BetaCam in hand.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#289892 - 07/14/16 06:25 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40132
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Conservatives lay blame on today's racial tensions on BLM and Barack Obama. It's too bad they're not honest enough to voice that racial tensions have always been a part of the American cultural make-up.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#289895 - 07/14/16 08:19 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6600
Loc: North San Diego County
I would just like to remind police officers that they are not always going to be wearing their riot gear, or their vest. They will not always be surrounded by other police officers. They may have a concealed carry permit, but that does nothing to protect you when somebody ambushes you in your driveway on the way to church, because you pissed the wrong person off.

For example, I am thinking about the officer in the internet video applying tear gas liquid directly to the eyes of sitting unarmed protesters. How would you know if one of those protesters is the kind of person who will discover your name and address and later come for you or your family? There is really very little you can do the protect against a surprise attack.

The majority of police officers do manage to do their jobs without making somebody want to kill them. They tend to be fair and professional, but there are a few who just do astonishingly dangerous things as if they were immortal. They are not, and they should ALL start acting like it. I think it needs to be in their continuing education training every year.

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#289896 - 07/14/16 10:00 AM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: Ken Condon]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Ken Condon
First of all Matthew I fully disclose my name and where I live. Unlike many on this board who are too afraid to do so. It is easily verifiable by a quick internet search if your might be predisposed.

I stand by any thing and everything I might say here-no matter how misguided it might be.

You have just laid out an outrageous statement that, if true, should be reason for the feds to get involved. If you could be so kind as to provide verifiable links regarding your very serious accusations-- we all would be most appreciative.


A reminder: We, here at Reader Rant, respect our fellow ranters and we do not make spurious allegations of falsehood of personal stories.
I find your comment reprehensible and dishonest in its intention, given that, the fact that you personally don't believe something means nothing. You have no right to contest the veracity of the story unless you are prepared to disprove it.
The statistics back up Matthew's story. Your disbelief is the result of, at best, willful blindness, at worst, bigotry.


The Statistics:

Quote:
Police themselves say misconduct is remarkably widespread.

Here’s the real clincher. A Department of Justice study revealed that a whopping 84 percent of police officers report that they’ve seen colleagues use excessive force on civilians, and 61 percent admit they don’t always report “even serious criminal violations that involve abuse of authority by fellow officers.”

This self-reporting moves us well beyond anecdote into the realm of data: Police brutality is a pervasive problem, exacerbated by systemic failures to curb it. That’s not to say that every officer is ill-intentioned or abusive, but it is to suggest that the common assumption that police are generally using their authority in a trustworthy manner merits serious reconsideration. As John Adams wrote to Jefferson, “Power always thinks it has a great soul,” and it cannot be trusted if left unchecked.

The good news is that the first step toward preventing police brutality is well-documented and fairly simple: Keep police constantly on camera. A 2012 study in Rialto, Calif. found that when officers were required to wear cameras recording all their interactions with citizens, “public complaints against officers plunged 88% compared with the previous 12 months. Officers’ use of force fell by 60%.” The simple knowledge that they were being watched dramatically altered police behavior.

Coupled with additional reforms, like making officers pay their own settlements and providing better training for dealing with pets, camera use could produce a significant decrease in police misconduct. It is not unrealistic to think that police brutality reports could be made far more unusual—but only once we acknowledge that it’s not just a few bad apples.


The American Conservative

Note that this is not a left wing publication.



Thus, unlike you, I cannot speak for my fellow ranters, but, as far as I am concerned, you have breached a rule of logic, not to mention etiquette, and I would hope that, in the future, you carefully consider your actions before SHOOTING YOUR MOUTH OFF.


Edited by Ezekiel (07/14/16 10:10 AM)
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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