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#290083 - 07/21/16 06:46 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces?a [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Nope. I guess there are a few dots missing to connect.

MY point is that the "militarization" of the police is a completely separate issue from racism/training of beat cops.

Whoever shot was just incompetent/poorly trained (or both). I even doubt that it was racially motivated, despite being in North Miami. The cop had his finger on the trigger when he shouldn't have. They were responding to a citizen claim of a man with a gun. The autistic patient was yelling and not responding (which is autism) and his caregiver was doing all he could to de-escalate the situation. The cop f'ed up. Bad situation, bad outcome. But given recent events, one can expect cops to be more on edge.

We have other threads that are more on topic.


We'll probably never know if it had to do with racism and the militarization of the police unless the shooter's record/past comes to light. And even then, it won't matter. They'll whitewash that.
Given recent events you would think that a non-racist cop would have thought twice about pulling the trigger if he wasn't sure why he was shooting.
No excuses.
And I think this is all part of the same pattern: shoot first (especially if the person isn't white) and then make up some bullshyte story. In any event, no need to worry, they never get a conviction anyway.
Sorry, man, I think it has EVERYTHING to do with the pattern that we have been discussing.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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#290087 - 07/21/16 08:14 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15180
Sorry, Zeke, just the wrong thread.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#290092 - 07/21/16 09:32 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
Spag-hetti Offline
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Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1540
Loc: Middle, USA
Does "militarized police forces" only refer to those police forces that have an abundance of military style vehicles and ordinance? Can it also refer to a militarization of thought? Is it possible that a militarized attitude could contribute somewhat to some cops looking at some citizens as unfriendlies? We've seen plenty of film on TV that implies that at least a few officers seem to approach their jobs like mopping-up operations. Shortest route to a final solution. That smacks of militarization to me.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#290096 - 07/21/16 09:46 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: Spag-hetti]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
Does "militarized police forces" only refer to those police forces that have an abundance of military style vehicles and ordinance? Can it also refer to a militarization of thought? Is it possible that a militarized attitude could contribute somewhat to some cops looking at some citizens as unfriendlies? We've seen plenty of film on TV that implies that at least a few officers seem to approach their jobs like mopping-up operations. Shortest route to a final solution. That smacks of militarization to me.


Indeed. I agree. Not just TV but also what they are taught as cadets. It is a sick system that replaces "Serve and Protect" with "Shoot to Kill" and don't worry, there won't be any consequences.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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#290098 - 07/21/16 09:51 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15180
THAT, I think, is a much better argument.

There ARE trends in law enforcement that have tended to alienate officers from the citizenry - beginning with moving beat cops into vehicles. Are there too few officers? Too many?

There are countervailing trends, too: Providing non-lethal arms, bicycle cops, community policing, drug courts. Policing is not what it was in Mayberry, the 50's, or our imaginations. There are terrorists, there are rioters, there is more firepower on the streets. All of this has to be taken into consideration as well.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#290101 - 07/21/16 10:05 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: matthew]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15180
The other sin that we perpetuate is extrapolating a general attitude from particular incidents. There ARE departments that have serious problems, but there are also many, MANY departments that don't.

I was in an Oregon town this week and an officer came by, on duty, and sat down with town residents at a local coffee shop. That same department had an officer that stopped by every day when my friends were delayed moving into their new house to make sure it was secure. That is exactly what we want, isn't it?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#290109 - 07/21/16 11:14 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1540
Loc: Middle, USA
Quote:
NWP said:
The other sin that we perpetuate is extrapolating a general attitude from particular incidents. There ARE departments that have serious problems, but there are also many, MANY departments that don't.

I was in an Oregon town this week and an officer came by, on duty, and sat down with town residents at a local coffee shop. That same department had an officer that stopped by every day when my friends were delayed moving into their new house to make sure it was secure. That is exactly what we want, isn't it?


I think you kind of extrapolated a general attitude from a particular incident, but you make a good point. Yes, I believe that's what most people want. I live in a small college town and I'm a townie. The cops have always been very good to me. But the treatment I receive is not available to all people uniformly (no pun intended) across the country.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#290111 - 07/21/16 11:36 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The other sin that we perpetuate is extrapolating a general attitude from particular incidents. There ARE departments that have serious problems, but there are also many, MANY departments that don't.

I was in an Oregon town this week and an officer came by, on duty, and sat down with town residents at a local coffee shop. That same department had an officer that stopped by every day when my friends were delayed moving into their new house to make sure it was secure. That is exactly what we want, isn't it?


As in all organizations, there will always be those who are vocationally attached to their work and those who aren't. Generalizations are generally wrong. But there has definitely been a shift in the mindset of police (and the methods and the tactics and the attitude) that is causing the grief that they themselves complain about (and it started years before there was any movement such as BLM) - this whole "they hate cops" thing. It is noteworthy that these reactions to police brutality do not surface from the void. They are the product of all too frequently observed events. We used to have civilian review boards in NYC - then they were abolished. Now they are back but in a crippled kind of way.
In the same way that Wall Street cannot self-regulate, food services cannot self-regulate, transportation services cannot self-regulate, any service that deals with the denizens must be held accountable. Flint Michigan is a case in point.
It is a simple matter of reason and logic. And in my opinion should transcend any and all ideological boundaries.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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#290129 - 07/22/16 02:43 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: Ezekiel]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1540
Loc: Middle, USA
Here we go. Bribery suspect and ex Rep. Michele Bachmann has gone to the dogs to 'splain things to BLM. There's no racism in dogs so there's no racism in people. All equal. No problem. (here)

But that black dog IS bigger and scarier.

(Sorry, couldn't get the picture to show. You can see it if you click the link.)


Edited by Spag-hetti (07/22/16 02:45 PM)
Edit Reason: Addendum
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#290134 - 07/22/16 03:13 PM Re: Who will protect Main Street, USA from militarized police forces? [Re: Spag-hetti]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
Here we go. Bribery suspect and ex Rep. Michele Bachmann has gone to the dogs to 'splain things to BLM. There's no racism in dogs so there's no racism in people. All equal. No problem. (here)

But that black dog IS bigger and scarier.

(Sorry, couldn't get the picture to show. You can see it if you click the link.)


Once again I am forced to remind myself (and all of you, sorry) - human stupidity knows no bounds.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




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