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#298118 - 01/14/17 10:02 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I was, apparently, remiss in my links. Here are a few more (the federal register doesn't even agree with themselves.

http://personalliberty.com/even-the-federal-government-has-no-idea-how-many-agencies-it-has/
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/feds-w...article/2570875
https://cei.org/blog/nobody-knows-how-many-federal-agencies-exist

As far as the hoover commission itself is concerned - it worked!
http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3331&context=mulr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Commissionhttps://www.trumanlibrary.org/hoover/hoover.htm
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/hoover/hoover.htm

Our problem is really, for me, pretty simple. We have gone almost 70 years without any real re-organization and its really time to make another run at it. The problem with the congress is that they seem to be unwilling to promote any commissions that might have teeth to get a job done. That is what happened with the last commission we had on the debt problem. There were solutions but nobody could bring themselves to do the job. This, of course, is probably the real problem and is unlikely to get fixed anytime soon.....

We hear all sorts of rhetoric about shutting down specific agencies, fixing the debt, etc. but that leads to absolutely nothing. I also find it interesting that they don't even know how many agencies they have but want to shut down others - that may actually be doing a job. Its kinda like the current get rid of Obamacare thing. The Republicans have nothing to replace it with but claim there is a plan - they just don't want anybody to know what it is. They will probably get rid of Obamacare but replacing it, with mystery is, obviously not gonna happen. Today we have moved into the new world where promises are made, and yet nothing happens. I am currently on Medicare and I fully expect them to try and mess with that one too. Hopefully they will have their hands full with Obamacare and that will take up all their time and effort.

While all this seems pretty terrible there is yet another problem. We have large segments of the electorate which seems unable to act in their own best interest. For instance, the righteous right has made no bones about wanting to change Medicare (basically gut it). They really want to do away with medicade and also want to get rid of social security. So, folks on any of those plans would, if they had half a brain, vote against those who want to take away these services. The interesting thing is that many of those same people voted for the folks that want to take away their services. One would think that those with elected that want to get rid of the services would vote against those elected - nope. A year or two ago they seriously cut the food stamp program. The majority of those on food stamps are from the red states yet those on foodstamps either didn't vote at all or continue to vote for those who, literally, took food out of their mouths.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/03/26/report-proves-stupid-red-states-parasites.html
http://ijr.com/2015/01/230371-2-map-shows-red-states-rely-federal-aid-looks-can-deceiving/
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/15/7...republican.html


We live in very strange times ................

I wish us all a whole bunch of luck.

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#298121 - 01/14/17 11:32 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15251
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The draft: We always had problems with that, because of deferments for students (children of the rich) and all sorts of special service programs for those rich kids when they went in. I can see a two years mandatory service plan for both genders, with no exceptions. But expand the definition of "service" to include Conservation Corp, teaching in depressed areas, Peace Corp, etc. so those with religious or ethical objection can serve as well. If you are in college and doing okay, service is delayed but never cancelled. So we get lots of High School grads right out of school up to people with PhDs.
We're conflating two disparate/conflicting issues in the thread. The US population in the mid-sixties was just over 200 million, and over 3 million in uniform. Today we have 330+ million, and just 1.4 million in uniform. If you want to guarantee MORE war, grow the military and make them less professional. Is this consistent with a smaller government? Less war? I don't think so.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298125 - 01/15/17 02:01 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6693
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
want to shut down others - that may actually be doing a job


Every US government agency "is doing a job". There is no redundancy department. You may not like what some of them are doing, but everything is authorized by some law or regulation. If you take that responsibility away from one, you have to give it to another unless you change the law or regulation.

If there are laws or regulations you don't like, by all means get them changed. The system will follow: It you can eliminate everything an agency has to do, then all the employees will transfer to other agencies, retire, etc.

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#298126 - 01/15/17 02:54 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15251
When my wife and I sit down to do a budget we have very different approaches. I start with what we're spending, she creates arbitrary limits by category. I'm always right &#128523;. If we follow my approach, we should see where we spend our money: Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go? Look at that, then we can discuss where we want to make cuts.

The other thing to remember, per the opener, is that it is OUR government, so if the money is spent on our priorities, I'm happy. Unfortunately, I do not believe that is the case. We spend WAY too much subsidizing businesses that don't need it.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298127 - 01/15/17 02:56 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Online   sleepy
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 179
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
We're conflating two disparate/conflicting issues in the thread. The US population in the mid-sixties was just over 200 million, and over 3 million in uniform. Today we have 330+ million, and just 1.4 million in uniform. If you want to guarantee MORE war, grow the military and make them less professional. Is this consistent with a smaller government? Less war? I don't think so.


Want fewer wars, institute the Draft. It is very easy to send professional soldiers to fight and nobody cares, but send Mr. and Mrs. John Q Public's little Johnny or Judy and they will question every move the politicians make in relation. There will always be a core need for a professional military, but it should be small and only large enough to act as the core of a larger drafted force.


edited to correct a dunce spelling error


Edited by Ujest Shurly (01/15/17 04:15 PM)
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Vote 2018

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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#298138 - 01/15/17 09:40 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15251
Actually, that doesn't work. The draft did not prevent the Vietnam war (or Civil, or Korean). The inequities in the system are rampant (See Trump, Bush, Limbaugh, etc.). They are unlikely to be cured by a Congress with so few veterans. Instead, they will be emboldened to be more aggressive with a larger military (See Reagan, Bush). Veteran's families are just as vocal with a volunteer force (See Sheehan, Kahn). I appreciate the sentiment and logic of the argument (I've made it myself), but given the evidence, logic does not prevail. Jingoism does.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298145 - 01/16/17 05:05 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Online   sleepy
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 179
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Actually, that doesn't work. The draft did not prevent the Vietnam war (or Civil, or Korean). The inequities in the system are rampant (See Trump, Bush, Limbaugh, etc.). They are unlikely to be cured by a Congress with so few veterans. Instead, they will be emboldened to be more aggressive with a larger military (See Reagan, Bush). Veteran's families are just as vocal with a volunteer force (See Sheehan, Kahn). I appreciate the sentiment and logic of the argument (I've made it myself), but given the evidence, logic does not prevail. Jingoism does.


What it did do was keep the war in the news and as the protests grew the politicians started to rethink their positions. Then when Ma and Pa Kettle started to protest and write their Congressmen, Congress started asking questions and started to cut funding and passed the Presidential War Powers Act.

There was no draft prior to the Civil War.

The Korea War was brought about by North Korea invading the South and activating defense clauses of the treaty we had with South Korea. A draft would not have stopped this war.

There was no draft during the Boxer Rebellion in Beijing 1899 - 1901.

There was no draft for the Banana Republic Wars, Spanish American War, Mexican American War, Panama Invasion, invasion of Grenada,

There was a draft for WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

The Indian Wars are not considered here, nor are the many, many expeditions to places such as Korea in 1871, the Formosa Expedition in 1867 or Rio de Janeiro in 1894

Ah hell, obligatory WikiPedia link List of wars involving the United States Inclusion of the link is not a statement of the articles veracity.

There have been more military expeditions with no Draft than there have been with a draft. IMO, other than Vietnam the wars with a draft could not have been avoided.

Is a Draft fair, hell no, can the Draft be made fair hell yes. However, I am not willing to have my children pay that price, I need to trust the nations leaders, the only one I have trusted is leaving office Friday. I dam sure do not trust his replacement.

Sorry for this wall of text, looks like a nerve was hit. Sorry.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#298156 - 01/16/17 07:56 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1614
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We now have wars that continue for years. Afghanistan, I think, is on year 13. If we had the draft this would have been stopped a long time ago. WWII, for instance, lasted for about 6 years. It was a war to win, we did that and that was it. Now, we fight wars that cannot be won for years, whilst the politicians and brave generals keep changing the goals and missions. Does anybody think that the mothers of America would stand for that if their children were being forced to fight in these disasters?

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#298159 - 01/16/17 09:02 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Online   sleepy
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 179
Loc: Michigan, USA
Today's wars are different, the enemy is different. They are amorphous, with a very pliable structure, they freely move around the globe and social media is their main channel of communications. We are also fighting an idea and a belief system along with their troops. Ideas are very hard to kill. Sad to say, but these new wars will last longer than Vietnam, far longer.

Vietnam is currently our longest running conflict, first overt US Military involvement (a MACV group) was in November 1955 under President Eisenhower. Plus about a year, with US Air Force support at Dien Bien Phu, in 1954. There is more to this story, but it is not germane to this thread.

Do not blame the Generals, they do carry their own blame for their own failings, but changing a conflicts goal posts is the province of the politician, remember our military is civilian controlled.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#298170 - 01/17/17 03:07 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15251
Here is the connection between the two disparate threads within this thread. We, the American public, have allowed OUR GOVERNMENT to operate independent of our oversight and against our interests because we don't perceive we have skin in the game. Whether risk to us and ours directly in war, or through economic and political malfeasance, we are reaping the fruits of our inattention. Donald Trump is the result, or at least one.

If we want to preserve some modicum of our personal independence and freedom - economic and political - we need to step up and participate, and no longer be passive investors. So, I agree with the initial post to that extent, though I quibble with some of the particulars.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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