Current Topics
Missouri SB 5 punishes women who use birth control
by Jeffery J. Haas
Today at 01:28 PM
Trump Forum
by pondering_it_all
Today at 04:57 AM
Trump and Russia
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 10:20 PM
Star Trek: Discovery to ditch a long frustrating Trek rule
by Golem
Yesterday at 06:45 PM
why democrats are losing
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 04:56 AM
Deceptive marketing, or frivolous lawsuit?
by pondering_it_all
Yesterday at 04:52 AM
The truth - finally
by Jeffery J. Haas
Yesterday at 12:53 AM
Miscellaneous humor thread
by Golem
06/22/17 09:33 PM
Want to do something about global warming?
by logtroll
06/22/17 12:29 PM
Should Star Trek Sequels Return to the Prime Timeline?
by Golem
06/22/17 01:46 AM
On Confirmation Bias (or why facts don't matter)
by jgw
06/21/17 09:53 PM
The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals (1972)
by Jeffery J. Haas
06/21/17 09:35 PM
Will the Supreme Court draw the line on gerrymandering?
by rporter314
06/21/17 05:04 PM
Gun Deaths In America
by NW Ponderer
06/20/17 04:44 PM
The Supreme Court Phone Location Case Will Decide the Future of Privacy
by NW Ponderer
06/20/17 02:36 PM
Forum Stats
6234 Members
57 Forums
15947 Topics
275255 Posts

Max Online: 282 @ 05/29/08 05:08 AM
Google Adsense
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#298040 - 01/11/17 07:00 PM OUR GOVERNMENT
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We seem to have serious problem, with OUR government and nobody seems to even vaguely care. I will try and give 2 examples of this. This first is that our own government doesn't seem to have any idea of just how many agencies it has.

https://cei.org/blog/nobody-knows-how-many-federal-agencies-exist
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/03/the-government-has-no-idea-how-many-agencies-it-has/

googled "number of agencies in the federal government" and got 239,000,000 replies.

Then there are our intelligence agencies. It would seem that we have so many that no single human being has any idea of who/what they are, what they are doing, etc. The link below was printed in 2010 and there is no reason to believe that there have been any changes in this problem since then.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-s...beyond-control/

I have not heard a single elected even utter the word "fix". I would add, to that club, talking heads of tv, and anybody from the administration. The last major reorganization of gov occurred, I think, in 1947 was the Hoover Commission which was established by Harry Truman and was responsible for a number of major reorganizations. I don't think there is a single business, that hires more than 1000, that does not hire consultants to examine their businesses and make suggestions. The same, obviously, does not apply to OUR government which has not had this done in almost 70 years.

I also tend to believe that if our government is, based on the above and stuff I am sure the rest of your can easily add to these examples. If this is true then, I think, an out of control government just may have something to do with a growing lack of faith, on the part of its citizens, in their government.

I am sure I have probably mentioned this stuff before but I think its worth a revisit. This is especially true when our 2 political parties choose what we have been told are the least liked candidates we have ever been presented with, that not only are our politics toxic and an offence (on any number of levels), but our government is, obviously, out of control (and nobody there seems to care). Throw in unending wars that cannot be won, an electorate that seems dysfunctional, and disinterested, I would venture the thought that we are in deep, deep, sh*t.

In the past we have always been able to blunder through. This time, however, I am beginning to have doubts <sigh>

Top
#298044 - 01/11/17 11:35 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 256
Originally Posted By: jgw
We seem to have serious problem, with OUR government and nobody seems to even vaguely care.

OUR government? It certainly isn't MY government!! I gave up on it years ago.

It is ridiculously na´ve to think it can be "fixed".

The only thing that will work is to start all over again from the beginning.

But most people aren't up for the hard work that means --- YET!
.
_________________________
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans

Top
#298058 - 01/12/17 11:35 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: matthew]
Ezekiel Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 6387
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: matthew
Originally Posted By: jgw
We seem to have serious problem, with OUR government and nobody seems to even vaguely care.

OUR government? It certainly isn't MY government!! I gave up on it years ago.

It is ridiculously na´ve to think it can be "fixed".

The only thing that will work is to start all over again from the beginning.

But most people aren't up for the hard work that means --- YET!
.


The pain threshold of the American petite bourgeoisie has been increased by 8 years of Obama. I am waiting to see how long it will take to bring that down to negative levels.
_________________________
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky




Top
#298059 - 01/12/17 11:56 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: Ezekiel]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8519
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
That's a bit obscure. Translation?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
#298065 - 01/12/17 06:59 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15240
I'm sorry,jgw (et al), that you've bought into the hype/meme. How big is "the government"? WaPo (subscription).
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298067 - 01/12/17 08:36 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6067
Loc: Highlands, Tx
BIG .... BIGNESS ... BIGGEST ... BIGGIER

conservatives like to confuse/conflate big with limited ... we have a limited government ... bureaucracies are inherently bloated

it is too bad conservatives think our government should be limited to the original 4 cabinet positions .... the problems facing government are larger or of greater impact on daily life thus demanding a granular approach for effective solutions
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

Top
#298081 - 01/13/17 09:11 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6682
Loc: North San Diego County
Simple people think all problems are simple. They aren't. You need to find solutions that are elegant instead of simple. They actually need to solve those problems, not just sound like they do.

This is the fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats like to identify real problems and implement real solutions that actually work. Republicans prefer fake problems (like voter fraud) and invent ideologically pure "solutions" with a snowball's chance in Hell of working. Then they brag about it and blame Democrats for their failures.

Top
#298099 - 01/13/17 09:51 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am a bit confused with the replies. Apparently nobody thinks its odd that OUR GOVERNMENT actually has no idea how many agencies it is, ie. it is ignorant of its own constituent parts (agencies). This is not an artifact of big government its an artifact of a failed government. It also means that there are regulators, of the government, that the government doesn't even know exist! For those of you who claim that OUR GOVERNMENT is not theirs is just plain strange. My suggestion is that you move to some place else to passively go through life whilst taking no responsibility. I cannot resist. For those of you who claim that the current president is not their president I would point out that you really don't get it. You do not have a choice - we have one president, he/she is it and he/she is ours whether we like it or not - its just the way it is.

I see others who don't argue the facts but think that fixing anything would be a complete waste of time. Sorry, can't buy that one. If Harry Truman (Democrat) could get the gov reorganized (several times) due to the Hoover (Republican) Commission I see no reason why we can't do that again. Instead, apparently, we just have to accept that we will be ruled by the greedy until there is blood in the streets.

I would like to see a new commission to make a run at reorganization. I would also like to see gov take a prime time spot, on public radio/tv reserved for shows on individual agencies and what they do (gov currently seems to think that mysterious government is the way to go).

I would also like to see a law that made voting mandatory. If somebody can't make up their mind, or don't like the choices they need not vote but leave that part of the ballot blank but they MUST submit the ballot (which, in itself, sends a message to them that rule). I also believe that EVERYBODY should pay tax, even the poor. It need not be much but it should be something. Its part of the deal, as far as I am concerned. Its pretty obvious to anybody who is watching that having a class or passive, non-interested, self obsessed citizenry is not exact working well.

I remember once, years ago, I was working in a little business and there was a customer that spent a lot of time whining about the elites and rich and how those that we poor and not rich were screwed over by those same elites and rich. I finally took a breath and suggested that she could easily join up with all them elites and rich if she really wanted to. She thought that was a real big joke. She said 'sure', that's likely to happen. I told her what to do. It was pretty simple. I had a friend who was constantly working at good works, making local gov better, etc. and he was constantly whining that there were never enough volunteers to help in his efforts and I sent her to him. She had no kids and was not married and had a lot of time on her hands. My friend helped her out by making her real busy, real quick. Over the years, with some amusement, I watched as she volunteered to run for city council, then state rep, etc. She is now gone but, before she died she did some good work - just needed a bit of help to get started. (she also got married and had kids).

So, if you think fixing gov is a complete waste of time, as far as I am concerned, YOU are the problem. If there are no solutions, and nobody is willing to even try, then we are, basically all doomed and might as well end it all right now <sigh>.

I also, incidentally, favor the draft. I believe that, when we had the draft, that the draft help bring the country together and did much to curve our lust for war. It was also educational. In every small town there is always the toughest guy in town. When we had a draft the toughest guy in town learned, quickly, that there is ALWAYS somebody a bit tougher <G>. Think on it, If we goto war, and start killing people, then the justification is that we are at risk, and it needs to be done. Now, however, there seems to be no curbing and we seem to be having wars that we cannot win on a regular basis. Apparently, when one of ours gets killed in one of these wars these days its apparently ok because the deceased volunteered and probably deserved it.

Top
#298106 - 01/14/17 02:15 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6682
Loc: North San Diego County
There are several problems with your rant:

1. Who exactly is this "they don't know everything" you are talking about. The President? The head of the GAO? Is somebody supposed to keep track of every single thing the government does and which person is responsible? Big corporations are not as big as the government and they certainly do not work that way. The CEO sets a broad agenda and has executives to oversee them, They have lieutenants, etc. all the way down. Somebody supervising 20 people might know everything they are doing, but he would be accused of being a micro-manager. I am sure that every department head knows exactly the responsibilities of his department. There really is not a lot of overlap (because we rarely hear of jurisdictional conflicts), but our government is responsible for MANY MANY things because a country like the US is very complex. Way too complex for one person to keep every detail in his mind at once. This is why we write things down.

Any attempt to reorganize will just shuffle responsibilities around. Fine if that's how you want to waste MANY MANY man-hours and billions of dollars.

I really doubt that 95% of government agencies are secret, and the ones that are need to stay that way. All of them have websites that talk about their responsibilities and actions. You just have not read them all.

Mandatory voting and involvement? Fine. I vote in every election anyway. Why not make everybody else. My wife's sister never votes just so she won't be called for jury duty! I'd like to stop that.

The draft: We always had problems with that, because of deferments for students (children of the rich) and all sorts of special service programs for those rich kids when they went in. I can see a two years mandatory service plan for both genders, with no exceptions. But expand the definition of "service" to include Conservation Corp, teaching in depressed areas, Peace Corp, etc. so those with religious or ethical objection can serve as well. If you are in college and doing okay, service is delayed but never cancelled. So we get lots of High School grads right out of school up to people with PhDs.

Top
#298109 - 01/14/17 03:57 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 176
Loc: Michigan, USA
Want to know how many "Agencies" the Federal Government has check the Federal Register. Or for those that want to know more, dig into the budget. Won't find the classified agencies, but you can find enough info to get a good idea. The authors of those two articles did little research IMO.



Edited by Ujest Shurly (01/14/17 04:04 PM)
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#298118 - 01/14/17 10:02 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I was, apparently, remiss in my links. Here are a few more (the federal register doesn't even agree with themselves.

http://personalliberty.com/even-the-federal-government-has-no-idea-how-many-agencies-it-has/
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/feds-w...article/2570875
https://cei.org/blog/nobody-knows-how-many-federal-agencies-exist

As far as the hoover commission itself is concerned - it worked!
http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3331&context=mulr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Commissionhttps://www.trumanlibrary.org/hoover/hoover.htm
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/hoover/hoover.htm

Our problem is really, for me, pretty simple. We have gone almost 70 years without any real re-organization and its really time to make another run at it. The problem with the congress is that they seem to be unwilling to promote any commissions that might have teeth to get a job done. That is what happened with the last commission we had on the debt problem. There were solutions but nobody could bring themselves to do the job. This, of course, is probably the real problem and is unlikely to get fixed anytime soon.....

We hear all sorts of rhetoric about shutting down specific agencies, fixing the debt, etc. but that leads to absolutely nothing. I also find it interesting that they don't even know how many agencies they have but want to shut down others - that may actually be doing a job. Its kinda like the current get rid of Obamacare thing. The Republicans have nothing to replace it with but claim there is a plan - they just don't want anybody to know what it is. They will probably get rid of Obamacare but replacing it, with mystery is, obviously not gonna happen. Today we have moved into the new world where promises are made, and yet nothing happens. I am currently on Medicare and I fully expect them to try and mess with that one too. Hopefully they will have their hands full with Obamacare and that will take up all their time and effort.

While all this seems pretty terrible there is yet another problem. We have large segments of the electorate which seems unable to act in their own best interest. For instance, the righteous right has made no bones about wanting to change Medicare (basically gut it). They really want to do away with medicade and also want to get rid of social security. So, folks on any of those plans would, if they had half a brain, vote against those who want to take away these services. The interesting thing is that many of those same people voted for the folks that want to take away their services. One would think that those with elected that want to get rid of the services would vote against those elected - nope. A year or two ago they seriously cut the food stamp program. The majority of those on food stamps are from the red states yet those on foodstamps either didn't vote at all or continue to vote for those who, literally, took food out of their mouths.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/03/26/report-proves-stupid-red-states-parasites.html
http://ijr.com/2015/01/230371-2-map-shows-red-states-rely-federal-aid-looks-can-deceiving/
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/15/7...republican.html


We live in very strange times ................

I wish us all a whole bunch of luck.

Top
#298121 - 01/14/17 11:32 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15240
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
The draft: We always had problems with that, because of deferments for students (children of the rich) and all sorts of special service programs for those rich kids when they went in. I can see a two years mandatory service plan for both genders, with no exceptions. But expand the definition of "service" to include Conservation Corp, teaching in depressed areas, Peace Corp, etc. so those with religious or ethical objection can serve as well. If you are in college and doing okay, service is delayed but never cancelled. So we get lots of High School grads right out of school up to people with PhDs.
We're conflating two disparate/conflicting issues in the thread. The US population in the mid-sixties was just over 200 million, and over 3 million in uniform. Today we have 330+ million, and just 1.4 million in uniform. If you want to guarantee MORE war, grow the military and make them less professional. Is this consistent with a smaller government? Less war? I don't think so.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298125 - 01/15/17 02:01 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6682
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
want to shut down others - that may actually be doing a job


Every US government agency "is doing a job". There is no redundancy department. You may not like what some of them are doing, but everything is authorized by some law or regulation. If you take that responsibility away from one, you have to give it to another unless you change the law or regulation.

If there are laws or regulations you don't like, by all means get them changed. The system will follow: It you can eliminate everything an agency has to do, then all the employees will transfer to other agencies, retire, etc.

Top
#298126 - 01/15/17 02:54 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15240
When my wife and I sit down to do a budget we have very different approaches. I start with what we're spending, she creates arbitrary limits by category. I'm always right &#128523;. If we follow my approach, we should see where we spend our money: Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go? Look at that, then we can discuss where we want to make cuts.

The other thing to remember, per the opener, is that it is OUR government, so if the money is spent on our priorities, I'm happy. Unfortunately, I do not believe that is the case. We spend WAY too much subsidizing businesses that don't need it.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298127 - 01/15/17 02:56 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 176
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
We're conflating two disparate/conflicting issues in the thread. The US population in the mid-sixties was just over 200 million, and over 3 million in uniform. Today we have 330+ million, and just 1.4 million in uniform. If you want to guarantee MORE war, grow the military and make them less professional. Is this consistent with a smaller government? Less war? I don't think so.


Want fewer wars, institute the Draft. It is very easy to send professional soldiers to fight and nobody cares, but send Mr. and Mrs. John Q Public's little Johnny or Judy and they will question every move the politicians make in relation. There will always be a core need for a professional military, but it should be small and only large enough to act as the core of a larger drafted force.


edited to correct a dunce spelling error


Edited by Ujest Shurly (01/15/17 04:15 PM)
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#298138 - 01/15/17 09:40 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15240
Actually, that doesn't work. The draft did not prevent the Vietnam war (or Civil, or Korean). The inequities in the system are rampant (See Trump, Bush, Limbaugh, etc.). They are unlikely to be cured by a Congress with so few veterans. Instead, they will be emboldened to be more aggressive with a larger military (See Reagan, Bush). Veteran's families are just as vocal with a volunteer force (See Sheehan, Kahn). I appreciate the sentiment and logic of the argument (I've made it myself), but given the evidence, logic does not prevail. Jingoism does.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298145 - 01/16/17 05:05 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 176
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Actually, that doesn't work. The draft did not prevent the Vietnam war (or Civil, or Korean). The inequities in the system are rampant (See Trump, Bush, Limbaugh, etc.). They are unlikely to be cured by a Congress with so few veterans. Instead, they will be emboldened to be more aggressive with a larger military (See Reagan, Bush). Veteran's families are just as vocal with a volunteer force (See Sheehan, Kahn). I appreciate the sentiment and logic of the argument (I've made it myself), but given the evidence, logic does not prevail. Jingoism does.


What it did do was keep the war in the news and as the protests grew the politicians started to rethink their positions. Then when Ma and Pa Kettle started to protest and write their Congressmen, Congress started asking questions and started to cut funding and passed the Presidential War Powers Act.

There was no draft prior to the Civil War.

The Korea War was brought about by North Korea invading the South and activating defense clauses of the treaty we had with South Korea. A draft would not have stopped this war.

There was no draft during the Boxer Rebellion in Beijing 1899 - 1901.

There was no draft for the Banana Republic Wars, Spanish American War, Mexican American War, Panama Invasion, invasion of Grenada,

There was a draft for WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam.

The Indian Wars are not considered here, nor are the many, many expeditions to places such as Korea in 1871, the Formosa Expedition in 1867 or Rio de Janeiro in 1894

Ah hell, obligatory WikiPedia link List of wars involving the United States Inclusion of the link is not a statement of the articles veracity.

There have been more military expeditions with no Draft than there have been with a draft. IMO, other than Vietnam the wars with a draft could not have been avoided.

Is a Draft fair, hell no, can the Draft be made fair hell yes. However, I am not willing to have my children pay that price, I need to trust the nations leaders, the only one I have trusted is leaving office Friday. I dam sure do not trust his replacement.

Sorry for this wall of text, looks like a nerve was hit. Sorry.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#298156 - 01/16/17 07:56 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We now have wars that continue for years. Afghanistan, I think, is on year 13. If we had the draft this would have been stopped a long time ago. WWII, for instance, lasted for about 6 years. It was a war to win, we did that and that was it. Now, we fight wars that cannot be won for years, whilst the politicians and brave generals keep changing the goals and missions. Does anybody think that the mothers of America would stand for that if their children were being forced to fight in these disasters?

Top
#298159 - 01/16/17 09:02 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 176
Loc: Michigan, USA
Today's wars are different, the enemy is different. They are amorphous, with a very pliable structure, they freely move around the globe and social media is their main channel of communications. We are also fighting an idea and a belief system along with their troops. Ideas are very hard to kill. Sad to say, but these new wars will last longer than Vietnam, far longer.

Vietnam is currently our longest running conflict, first overt US Military involvement (a MACV group) was in November 1955 under President Eisenhower. Plus about a year, with US Air Force support at Dien Bien Phu, in 1954. There is more to this story, but it is not germane to this thread.

Do not blame the Generals, they do carry their own blame for their own failings, but changing a conflicts goal posts is the province of the politician, remember our military is civilian controlled.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#298170 - 01/17/17 03:07 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15240
Here is the connection between the two disparate threads within this thread. We, the American public, have allowed OUR GOVERNMENT to operate independent of our oversight and against our interests because we don't perceive we have skin in the game. Whether risk to us and ours directly in war, or through economic and political malfeasance, we are reaping the fruits of our inattention. Donald Trump is the result, or at least one.

If we want to preserve some modicum of our personal independence and freedom - economic and political - we need to step up and participate, and no longer be passive investors. So, I agree with the initial post to that extent, though I quibble with some of the particulars.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298171 - 01/17/17 03:38 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8519
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
There was a local community meeting held here Sunday evening - an organizing effort to get our sh!t together. There have been lots of similar meetings over the past 20 years that I have lived here, which all proved out as windy BS, due mostly to a lack of perception of a real enough threat for people to activate around. This one felt different, and I actually recruited a number of people to participate in my particular focus on building a resilient economy based on local small businesses serving energy conservation and environmental restoration.

I think that FINALLY folks will start to invest their own real effort and money in such things and abandon the idea that we can get the government to take care of it.

Another sector amping up is political activism. Ours happens to be a solidly blue demographic, but the Democratic party here is lame and unprogressive. There is a strong cadre of local Progressives, but the Dem party leadership is entrenched and has been resistant to fresh ideas. Perhaps the Trumpocalyse will improve that scenario.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

Top
#298172 - 01/17/17 04:30 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 176
Loc: Michigan, USA
Good luck in your efforts. I have to be a gadfly. It is so RED here, I could swear I was on Mars.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

Top
#298180 - 01/17/17 10:51 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Let me try one more time on the draft. The draft will not stop us getting into wars. It will, however, stop those wars from going on forever unless they can be truly justified. The war in Afghanistan, for instance, cannot be justified. Hell, we don't even know why we are there and what the goals are as they keep on changing. On reflection the war in Afghanistan is a little like a Trump speech.

Top
#298183 - 01/18/17 07:49 AM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12493
Loc: Whittier, California
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

Top
#298201 - 01/18/17 08:01 PM Re: OUR GOVERNMENT [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Jeffery, <G>

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Who's Online
2 registered (NW Ponderer, 1 invisible), 28 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Seadog, sapogvvsrost, papedPop, Dujmovochka123, zapedPop
6234 Registered Users
A2