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#298967 - 02/24/17 06:42 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8421
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
How about anything you can come up with? It is your suggestion, I assume you have something in mind.
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"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298968 - 02/24/17 07:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8421
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: bigswede
Perhaps the queues in American health care is a sign of a market not enough free?
Or just regulated the wrong fashion?

Apparently, these questions are vacuous and without substance.
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"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298969 - 02/24/17 07:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 14989
No, the queues are a sign that there is not enough medicine for enough people. The reality is that free market medicine has failed "bigly" in the United States. Insurance is only half the story. Nostrums aside, I was "in" rural medicine in the 1980s. Even then, medicine was failing outside of major centers. CDC: higher risk of death from leading causes in rural America. There aren't enough doctors, period, and little incentive to work in small towns. The VA's woes are indicative of the larger problem. Why Hiring More Doctors To Treat Veterans Isn't Going To Be Easy - Forbes.

Conservatives love to bash public medicine as "socialized" without considering the vastly superior results in every country that has it over what happens here. These Are The 36 Countries That Have Better Healthcare Systems Than The US - Business Insider. Even Cuba does a better job of delivering care. There are very successful models the world over, and many include private medicine and insurance.

Medicare, with all its problems, far outshines nearly every other insurance plan out there. Medicare vs. Private Insurance: Rhetoric and Reality - Commonwealth fund. A third of Americans already have "socialized" medicine, and despite the outrageous misstatements by conservatives and Republicans, the ACA is very far from "socialized" medicine or removal of "choice". When people have actual experience with the ACA, they like it. Most of the complaints have little or nothing to do with the program itself, but people buying into BS or exaggerating the ACA's impact.


Edited by NW Ponderer (02/24/17 07:32 PM)
Edit Reason: Add references
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298970 - 02/24/17 07:10 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5911
Loc: Highlands, Tx
yes ... in the secret conservative handbook on communism and socialism there is a chapter on how Americans conspire to get sick all at once to clog up ER's and Dr's offices to make the government look bad to conservatives

patient to doctor [http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/185-the-patients-per-doctor-map-of-the-world]
Cuba 170
Belarus 220
Belgium 220
Greece 230
Russia 230
Georgia 240
Italy 240
Turkmenistan 240
Ukraine 240
Lithuania 250
Uruguay 270
Bulgaria 280
Iceland 280
Kazakhstan 280
Switzerland 280
Portugal 290
France 300
Germany 300
Hungary 300
South Korea 300
Spain 300
Denmark 310
Sweden 310
Finland 320
Netherlands 320
Norway 320
Argentina 330
Latvia 330
Ireland 360
Uzbekistan 360
Mongolia 380
United States 390

yep ... definitely a conspiracy

next time don't pull it from [the 7th planet]
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298971 - 02/24/17 07:58 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 14989
15% of the US population receives medicare (single payer), 16% medicaid (single payer). VA provides care to 9 million vets (direct and single payer), as does Tricare for active, reserve and retired military and family (single payer), and an additional 2.2 million Native Americans by the Indian Health Service. That's a LOT of socialized medicine.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298972 - 02/24/17 08:04 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8421
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
15% of the US population receives medicare (single payer), 16% medicaid (single payer). VA provides care to 9 million vets (direct and single payer), as does Tricare for active, reserve and retired military and family (single payer), and an additional 2.2 million Native Americans by the Indian Health Service. That's a LOT of socialized medicine.

Yabbut... ain't all the folks on socialized healthcare plans HOLLERING to be on Free Market Insurance?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298973 - 02/24/17 08:05 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 251
I don't know how strong influence the doctors have on education. Can it be that the profession is restricting the output of licensed doctors on the market? Keeping supply short, to keep prices up?
Is the patent period for medicine to long? If it is shortened competition will take effect sooner.
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Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298974 - 02/24/17 08:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 14989
Originally Posted By: bigswede
There is no way there will be neither emergency care nor healthcare available without any profit incentive.
In trying to figure out how that makes any sense whatever.
Originally Posted By: bigswede
What happens in tax funded medical aid systems is that the system finds it profitable to do away with staff. That way the few left are able to get more money each.
Sorry, but that nonsense requires some citation or source. It just doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted By: bigswede
The queue is the hallmark sign of socialism.
As demonstrated earlier, that is simply a falsehood.

Originally Posted By: bigswede
the best way would be to allow public systems real negotiating power when buying medicine, surgery or what ever. That way profit would be available only to those who can produce most effectively. Wouldn't that be the American way?
It would be, except when ideologues prevent it from happening (as during the Bush administration). The ACA actually does that ... so, I'm trying to ascertain the point/objection.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298975 - 02/24/17 08:12 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5911
Loc: Highlands, Tx
the reason medicare exists is the FM solution (LOL) cost more than people could afford or maybe one could say the FM told old folks to die younger
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298977 - 02/24/17 08:23 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6394
Loc: North San Diego County
I recently changed from an employer-group insurance plan to Medicare. Now I'm supposed to be waiting in queues until I die, because it's SOCIALIZED MEDICINE?

Same Physicians Group, same GP, same Neurologist. All covered by my Medicare Advantage Plan C with drug coverage, and the premium I pay over Part B is $0/month. The docs aren't even aware of how I'm covered, nor the people who schedule appointments. If I have a non-ER problem I can usually get in to my GP within a day or two. There were Medicare Advantage plans that did not use my Group and some that were a little more expensive. I just looked online but I got deluged with snail mail information packets. Could have picked without internet access. Some insurers even offered a free lunch info session!

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