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#298748 - 02/15/17 10:43 AM A big insurer just quit Obamacare
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40215
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

via Vox.com

Quote:
Humana announced Tuesday that it would no longer participate in the Obamacare marketplaces, making it the first major insurer to withdraw from the exchanges since Trumpís election.

In a statement to investors, Humana didnít talk about the current uncertainty surrounding the health lawís future. Instead, it cited problems from last year, suggesting that the people who signed up were sicker than the insurer expected. This was Humanaís statement:

Quote:
Based on its initial analysis of data associated with the companyís healthcare exchange membership following the 2017 open enrollment period, Humana is seeing further signs of an unbalanced risk pool. Therefore, the company has decided that it cannot continue to offer this coverage for 2018. Through the remainder of 2017, Humana remains committed to serving its current members across 11 states where it offers Individual Commercial products. And, as it has done in the past, Humana will work closely with its state partners as it navigates this process.
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#298749 - 02/15/17 04:46 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13754
Loc: Florida
And therein lies the problem with health insurance as a business model. If "for profit" insurance companies are allowed to pick and choose who they will insure to maximize profit, the higher risk and uninsured will invariably flock to emergency rooms for basic healthcare with no intention or ability to pay the exorbitant costs of ER care which, in turn, will result in hospital failures and closings or government subsidies. Ultimately these healthcare costs fall on the taxpayer. Yet Republican policy is to view all taxes as anathema even when those taxes ultimately reduce government costs as does the ACA by forcing healthy, low risk people to either buy insurance or pay a fee.
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#298751 - 02/15/17 06:40 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40215
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Exactly. The real problem with ACA is that we cut in private industry - the profit motive. Given that ACA is actually the 1993 Republican HEART plan, cutting in the profit motive shouldn't be a surprise.

The problem with healthcare is the profit motive: You can't have life and death pitted against the motive profit.
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#298756 - 02/15/17 07:42 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6686
Loc: North San Diego County
You have to go one of two ways, if we want to prevent the death spiral of hospitals passing the uninsured costs on to insured customers. These are the cold hard economic facts.

1) Make health insurance MANDATORY with prison slave labor until you get insured.

or

2) Anybody can refuse to buy health insurance but they die in the ER parking lot after an accident or illness if they don't have the means to pay. That includes your house, your car, your life savings, etc. No exclusions.

Helping poor, sick, and old people buy health insurance is just details administrations can fiddle with. All the Medicaid & Medicare stuff can continue to exist.

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#298925 - 02/23/17 03:04 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1551
Loc: Middle, USA
So, if we cut out the insurance companies, we could send our money to the government and save all the money that goes to profits. That would sure cut the cost to taxpayers who supplement those who cannot afford to pay much.

Makes sense to me.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#298928 - 02/23/17 05:59 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: Spag-hetti]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6686
Loc: North San Diego County
Sure, but we have to get rid of the law that says Social Security is not allowed to negotiate drug prices, like big insurers and the VA do. As it is now, SS has to pay whatever list price is, even for a $62,000/year MS drug that costs the drug company about $25/year to make. And the drug companies can set list prices anywhere they like. This sort of extortion is not unusual at all for many new drugs.

They are using the patent laws to rob Social Security (and to a lesser extent the insurance companies) blind, which makes health care more expensive for all of us. I think we need a tweek to patent law as well, to say charging more that 1000% profit cancels the patent.

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#298943 - 02/23/17 10:35 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1612
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The problem with healthcare is, in my own mind, pretty simple. Healthcare should not be for profit but, rather, a social enterprise. If for profit healthcare continues then we might consider the Swiss solution, ie. to be in the health insurance business you must certain stuff stuff for free. Anything that is not free can be charged for. Its my understanding that Swiss insurance companies now own most of the hospitals there.

Hopefully I have this right <G>

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#298945 - 02/24/17 12:09 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pondering_it_all]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1551
Loc: Middle, USA
Good point, PIA. That would save us a bucket load. I'm disgusted by the drug companies' extorting sick people.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#298946 - 02/24/17 12:33 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15245
Imagine my surprise today, when I got a bill from my wife's Medicare provider for an additional $805.92 for medications we paid for over the last year... My wife has been on SS disability for nearly 5 years, now, and thus Medicare. We dutifully pay our Medicare Advantage so that she can have the same medical care she has had for the last 20+ years. Suddenly her medication cost quadrupled, and now they are going back to last year to add that onto her bill. Same fixed income... something is not right.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298947 - 02/24/17 01:17 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6069
Loc: Highlands, Tx
are you saying you paid the bill 12months ago and now they send an additional bill ... how exactly does that work?

Imagine if Amazon decides to additionally bill me for something I paid for last year ... i would have to say ....really ...
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298949 - 02/24/17 01:50 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15245
Pretty much exactly what I said. Oh, really!?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298950 - 02/24/17 02:19 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 177
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Imagine my surprise today, when I got a bill from my wife's Medicare provider for an additional $805.92 for medications we paid for over the last year... My wife has been on SS disability for nearly 5 years, now, and thus Medicare. We dutifully pay our Medicare Advantage so that she can have the same medical care she has had for the last 20+ years. Suddenly her medication cost quadrupled, and now they are going back to last year to add that onto her bill. Same fixed income... something is not right.


I would call Medicare (1-800-633-4227) and just in case Medicare website. Also take a look at Section 9, page 103, of your Medicare & You 2017 handbook, there maybe something in there that can help. Also have you past Ins SoBs and quarterly Medicare statements available.

Since Medicare is the primary, the Advantage plan should have submitted those charges to Medicare first.

Good luck
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#298955 - 02/24/17 06:36 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6686
Loc: North San Diego County
Medicare Plan D and Plan C with drug coverage both have the same problem: There is no maximum out-of-pocket for expensive drugs that are in the formulary. So the drug company can set the list price to ANYTHING they like and you then have to pay a percentage. Even if you get up to catastrophic care, you still have to pay 5%. Which can be thousands of dollars.

ACA was a lot cheaper for me, which kinda defeats the purpose of MediCare.

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#298958 - 02/24/17 10:00 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: Spag-hetti]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40215
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Spag-hetti
So, if we cut out the insurance companies, we could send our money to the government and save all the money that goes to profits. That would sure cut the cost to taxpayers who supplement those who cannot afford to pay much.

Makes sense to me.

That's because you're a Liberal. cool
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Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#298959 - 02/24/17 02:56 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6069
Loc: Highlands, Tx
former Spkr Boehner became suddenly enlightened and offered a reality check to the delusional conservative Congresspeople ... there is no Republican plan which can do everything ACA does and still keep costs down
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298961 - 02/24/17 04:40 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 251
There is no way there will be neither emergency care nor healthcare available without any profit incentive.
What happens in tax funded medical aid systems is that the system finds it profitable to do away with staff. That way the few left are able to get more money each. The way to get this done is to institute the socialist standard: sick people aren't customers, they are patients without voice or say. They wait patiently (bad pun intended) in line on their turn. If they die or get sicker while waiting, it's only a regrettable side effect of free medical aid. The system accepts no blame.
The queue is the hallmark sign of socialism.

Oh, and bigwigs at the party top can pass the queue or even buy insurance to get health care abroad.

The best way would be to allow public systems real negotiating power when buying medicine, surgery or what ever. That way profit would be available only to those who can produce most effectively. Wouldn't that be the American way?


Edited by bigswede (02/24/17 04:43 PM)
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298963 - 02/24/17 05:11 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6069
Loc: Highlands, Tx
it always seems that everyone has something to say after the fact .... free markets (FM) will solve the problem

if FMs will solve a problem which has existed for over 100 years how fast does the FM move??? the reality is the FM has no solution because the FM is only interested in making money. it is not sentient so it would not know that there is a problem in search of a solution unless people, you, me, elected officials, offered directions to the FM.

If one says they believe in universal healthcare then one is saying government must provide the impetus to implement that policy. the problem is the cost drivers. absolutely no plan which relies on FM principles will lower costs. what FM principles do with increased competition is lower premium costs to just above rising cost drivers.

your proposal is only temporary. once pricing has adjusted the cost drivers will once again take hold and carriers will be forced to increase premiums.

ACA had mechanisms to impact the cost drivers and this is precisely what is needed in addition to all other tweaks.

I had to laugh at your queue statement. perhaps you have not noticed the "queues" at emergency rooms or doctors offices none of which has anything to do with ACA or socialized medicene. It is the direct result of the failure of the FM to provide more doctors, more hospitals, etc as a solution for an increasing population in need of healthcare.

when the FM can not provide a solution, it is the obligation of our government by contractual agreement to provide it
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298964 - 02/24/17 06:04 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 251
Perhaps the queues in American health care is a sign of a market not enough free?
Or just regulated the wrong fashion?
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298965 - 02/24/17 06:21 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8520
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: bigswede
Perhaps the queues in American health care is a sign of a market not enough free?
Or just regulated the wrong fashion?

Very interesting! Would you pleasure our intellects with a detailed scenario about how this would work?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298966 - 02/24/17 06:25 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 251
Detailed, that's a tall order!
Obama's staff of professors weren't able to.


Edited by bigswede (02/24/17 08:01 PM)
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298967 - 02/24/17 06:42 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8520
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
How about anything you can come up with? It is your suggestion, I assume you have something in mind.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298968 - 02/24/17 07:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8520
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: bigswede
Perhaps the queues in American health care is a sign of a market not enough free?
Or just regulated the wrong fashion?

Apparently, these questions are vacuous and without substance.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298969 - 02/24/17 07:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15245
No, the queues are a sign that there is not enough medicine for enough people. The reality is that free market medicine has failed "bigly" in the United States. Insurance is only half the story. Nostrums aside, I was "in" rural medicine in the 1980s. Even then, medicine was failing outside of major centers. CDC: higher risk of death from leading causes in rural America. There aren't enough doctors, period, and little incentive to work in small towns. The VA's woes are indicative of the larger problem. Why Hiring More Doctors To Treat Veterans Isn't Going To Be Easy - Forbes.

Conservatives love to bash public medicine as "socialized" without considering the vastly superior results in every country that has it over what happens here. These Are The 36 Countries That Have Better Healthcare Systems Than The US - Business Insider. Even Cuba does a better job of delivering care. There are very successful models the world over, and many include private medicine and insurance.

Medicare, with all its problems, far outshines nearly every other insurance plan out there. Medicare vs. Private Insurance: Rhetoric and Reality - Commonwealth fund. A third of Americans already have "socialized" medicine, and despite the outrageous misstatements by conservatives and Republicans, the ACA is very far from "socialized" medicine or removal of "choice". When people have actual experience with the ACA, they like it. Most of the complaints have little or nothing to do with the program itself, but people buying into BS or exaggerating the ACA's impact.


Edited by NW Ponderer (02/24/17 07:32 PM)
Edit Reason: Add references
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298970 - 02/24/17 07:10 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6069
Loc: Highlands, Tx
yes ... in the secret conservative handbook on communism and socialism there is a chapter on how Americans conspire to get sick all at once to clog up ER's and Dr's offices to make the government look bad to conservatives

patient to doctor [http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/185-the-patients-per-doctor-map-of-the-world]
Cuba 170
Belarus 220
Belgium 220
Greece 230
Russia 230
Georgia 240
Italy 240
Turkmenistan 240
Ukraine 240
Lithuania 250
Uruguay 270
Bulgaria 280
Iceland 280
Kazakhstan 280
Switzerland 280
Portugal 290
France 300
Germany 300
Hungary 300
South Korea 300
Spain 300
Denmark 310
Sweden 310
Finland 320
Netherlands 320
Norway 320
Argentina 330
Latvia 330
Ireland 360
Uzbekistan 360
Mongolia 380
United States 390

yep ... definitely a conspiracy

next time don't pull it from [the 7th planet]
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298971 - 02/24/17 07:58 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15245
15% of the US population receives medicare (single payer), 16% medicaid (single payer). VA provides care to 9 million vets (direct and single payer), as does Tricare for active, reserve and retired military and family (single payer), and an additional 2.2 million Native Americans by the Indian Health Service. That's a LOT of socialized medicine.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298972 - 02/24/17 08:04 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8520
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
15% of the US population receives medicare (single payer), 16% medicaid (single payer). VA provides care to 9 million vets (direct and single payer), as does Tricare for active, reserve and retired military and family (single payer), and an additional 2.2 million Native Americans by the Indian Health Service. That's a LOT of socialized medicine.

Yabbut... ain't all the folks on socialized healthcare plans HOLLERING to be on Free Market Insurance?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#298973 - 02/24/17 08:05 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 251
I don't know how strong influence the doctors have on education. Can it be that the profession is restricting the output of licensed doctors on the market? Keeping supply short, to keep prices up?
Is the patent period for medicine to long? If it is shortened competition will take effect sooner.
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298974 - 02/24/17 08:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15245
Originally Posted By: bigswede
There is no way there will be neither emergency care nor healthcare available without any profit incentive.
In trying to figure out how that makes any sense whatever.
Originally Posted By: bigswede
What happens in tax funded medical aid systems is that the system finds it profitable to do away with staff. That way the few left are able to get more money each.
Sorry, but that nonsense requires some citation or source. It just doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted By: bigswede
The queue is the hallmark sign of socialism.
As demonstrated earlier, that is simply a falsehood.

Originally Posted By: bigswede
the best way would be to allow public systems real negotiating power when buying medicine, surgery or what ever. That way profit would be available only to those who can produce most effectively. Wouldn't that be the American way?
It would be, except when ideologues prevent it from happening (as during the Bush administration). The ACA actually does that ... so, I'm trying to ascertain the point/objection.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#298975 - 02/24/17 08:12 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6069
Loc: Highlands, Tx
the reason medicare exists is the FM solution (LOL) cost more than people could afford or maybe one could say the FM told old folks to die younger
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298977 - 02/24/17 08:23 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6686
Loc: North San Diego County
I recently changed from an employer-group insurance plan to Medicare. Now I'm supposed to be waiting in queues until I die, because it's SOCIALIZED MEDICINE?

Same Physicians Group, same GP, same Neurologist. All covered by my Medicare Advantage Plan C with drug coverage, and the premium I pay over Part B is $0/month. The docs aren't even aware of how I'm covered, nor the people who schedule appointments. If I have a non-ER problem I can usually get in to my GP within a day or two. There were Medicare Advantage plans that did not use my Group and some that were a little more expensive. I just looked online but I got deluged with snail mail information packets. Could have picked without internet access. Some insurers even offered a free lunch info session!

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#298980 - 02/24/17 08:39 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6069
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Can it be that the profession is restricting the output of licensed doctors on the market? Keeping supply short, to keep prices up?

Let me try and unpack that.

The medical profession is engaged in a conspiracy to limit the number of doctors so each one can make more money than they can stand. Doctors work an average 60hr/wk and the ave pay is about $180k-$190k/yr. works out to about $60/hr, which is not bad I suppose for a casual money maker.

But the facts portray a different scenario. First I would not go to a doctor whose primary reason to be a doctor was to make money.

But there are a number of reasons (and not in any particular order) primary care physicians are in short supply. Part is perception. Look at rural areas. Some 33% of states have over a 50% shortage of primary care physicians in rural areas which inherently means the ones who are working are overloaded. Population has increased faster than replacement of doctors. Medical schools graduate more specialists than ever before leaving fewer primary care docs. Longer hours with less pay. and more

As you can see, it is not a simple glib comment about money.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#298981 - 02/24/17 09:00 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 251
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Originally Posted By: bigswede
There is no way there will be neither emergency care nor healthcare available without any profit incentive.
In trying to figure out how that makes any sense whatever.
Originally Posted By: bigswede
What happens in tax funded medical aid systems is that the system finds it profitable to do away with staff. That way the few left are able to get more money each.
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Sorry, but that nonsense requires some citation or source. It just doesn't work that way.


It is this generalization of Parkinson's law:
The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law

Originally Posted By: bigswede
The queue is the hallmark sign of socialism.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
As demonstrated earlier, that is simply a falsehood.

I beg to differ. As demonstrated by experience in Cuba, the Soviet union, DDR, communist China, communist Vietnam, it is true.

Originally Posted By: bigswede
the best way would be to allow public systems real negotiating power when buying medicine, surgery or what ever. That way profit would be available only to those who can produce most effectively. Wouldn't that be the American way?
It would be, except when ideologues prevent it from happening (as during the Bush administration). The ACA actually does that ... so, I'm trying to ascertain the point/objection.
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298983 - 02/24/17 09:08 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: logtroll]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 177
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
15% of the US population receives medicare (single payer), 16% medicaid (single payer). VA provides care to 9 million vets (direct and single payer), as does Tricare for active, reserve and retired military and family (single payer), and an additional 2.2 million Native Americans by the Indian Health Service. That's a LOT of socialized medicine.

Yabbut... ain't all the folks on socialized healthcare plans HOLLERING to be on Free Market Insurance?


I'm not! I like my Insurance coverage.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#298985 - 02/24/17 09:16 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: rporter314]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 177
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
First I would not go to a doctor whose primary reason to be a doctor was to make money.



Hate to say this, but accordion to my (now dead) Brother-in-Law (Vice-President of a Hospital in Anne Arundel County MD, Personnel and Budget)all Doctors are in it for the money. Though many also want to do good by the patient, but the money is first.
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#298990 - 02/24/17 11:09 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: Ujest Shurly]
logtroll Offline
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My still live BIL went in it for the money, too. He's got some heart about it, but still uses money as the top consideration for deciding where to work.
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#298991 - 02/24/17 11:25 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
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Parkinson's Law is independent of political systems

differences between you and others does not imply the others are socialists or communists .... it means they are different
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#298997 - 02/25/17 12:42 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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Want more rural doctors? Subsidize them, so that is a reasonable economic choice. You can do that by making medical school free if they work in a rural practice for 10 years. Send more through medical school than you actually need because some will quit after 10 years to move to a more lucrative area and some will quit early and chose to pay for it themselves.

It just depends on how much you want blue states to subsidize red states.

We already have done this with nurses and teachers in various programs.

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#298999 - 02/25/17 12:44 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: rporter314]
TatumAH Offline
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Loc: Upstate NY
I have often heard Doctors say that one of the main reasons for going into Medicine, was to be able to protect yourself and your family from other Doctors.
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#299003 - 02/25/17 02:25 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Phil Hoskins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ujest Shurly
Originally Posted By: rporter314
First I would not go to a doctor whose primary reason to be a doctor was to make money.



Hate to say this, but accordion to my (now dead) Brother-in-Law (Vice-President of a Hospital in Anne Arundel County MD, Personnel and Budget)all Doctors are in it for the money. Though many also want to do good by the patient, but the money is first.
My experience is general practioners are not so much in it for the money and specialists are.
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#299004 - 02/25/17 02:55 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: Phil Hoskins]
TatumAH Offline
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Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 377
Loc: Upstate NY
Quote:
My experience is general practioners are not so much in it for the money and specialists are.


Oh Yes Phil, like all them damn specialists working in academic medical centers making a small fraction of what them "practioners" (whatever they are??) are making! grin

Remember the three rules in criminal law, that are also applicable to Medicine (and most law in my experience)?

I. Get the money up front.
II. Remember it is the client that goes to jail, not the attorney.
III. Get the money up front

For Doctors simply substitute II: Remember it is the patient that dies, not the Physician!
Tat
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#299012 - 02/25/17 06:13 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6686
Loc: North San Diego County
My neurologist is a pretty nice guy. He identified my hand tremor and then said his hand tremor is why he wasn't a surgeon. Some times you have to do something you can do, because the thing you wanted to do is impossible. You just have to get on with life, and make the most of what you have.

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#299013 - 02/25/17 09:04 AM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Here's a reality not yet discussed: many doctors go into specialities to pay for medical school.
Quote:
The median four-year cost of medical school (including expenses and books) was $278,455 for private schools, and $207,866 for public schools in 2013 according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.
As noted earlier, GPs or "primary care" physicians make about half as much as specialists. Imagine starting your career in debt for nearly half a million dollars (including undergraduate school). It's no wonder that compensation is a significant consideration.
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#299043 - 02/25/17 10:58 PM Re: A big insurer just quit Obamacare [Re: NW Ponderer]
TatumAH Offline
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Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 377
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Here's a reality not yet discussed: many doctors go into specialities to pay for medical school.
Quote:
The median four-year cost of medical school (including expenses and books) was $278,455 for private schools, and $207,866 for public schools in 2013 according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.
As noted earlier, GPs or "primary care" physicians make about half as much as specialists. Imagine starting your career in debt for nearly half a million dollars (including undergraduate school). It's no wonder that compensation is a significant consideration.


This is clearly a major factor in the choice of specialties or going into primary care like general medicine or pediatrics. This has been somewhat adjusted, by increasing compensation for primary care as the demand for more primary care increased. There are still major differences in compensation, but other factors also play an important role.

https://www.theatlantic.com

Most medical student are at least moderately intelligent, and have become good at gaming the system. This applies to compensation for sure, but specialization provides another benefit. A specialist masters a certain limited field, while a generalist has to try to keep up with everything in very rapidly changing medical information. Generalists deal with this by getting lots of specialty consults when there is even a suggestion of an organ specific disorder. It a typical Cover your Assets stratergery. Knowing your limits is key in this. The generalists also see many more patients/day, and the Electronic Medical Record gets more burdensome with many patients/day. Quality of life is becoming more important than compensation, after a certain baseline, that allows one to pay down the education debts. There is also a Federal program of debt forgiveness after serving definite times in a needed health care role. The future of this program is clearly uncertain in this time of chaotic changes!

This is not limited to Medicine, and you sure dont want a Corporate or International Law expert when you really need a Criminal Lawyer who has been keeping up to date in his specialized skill set.
Tat

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