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#299331 - 03/07/17 07:07 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12499
Loc: Whittier, California

FORBES:Trump's Wiretap Tweets Raise Risk of Impeachment

This is a defining moment, perhaps THE defining moment.
No, I don't mean Trump's idiotic tweets, I mean the idea, the notion, that this nation seems to be prepared to IGNORE the salient points put forth by Noah Feldman, to wit:

Quote:
"In a rule of law society, government allegations of criminal activity must be followed by proof and prosecution. If not, the government is ruling by innuendo.
Shadowy dictatorships can do that because there is no need for proof. Democracies canít."


What Noah Feldman says demands another question:
Is the United States of America still a nation of laws or have we now become a nation of men instead.

The points made here raise, perhaps for the final time, whether America is a nation of laws or a nation of men.
If America has now proven to be the latter, then there is nothing left worth saving.

And so far, I do not SEE ONE DAMN THING that supports the argument that we are still a nation of laws.
So don't take the easy way out and just accuse me of being Debbie Downer, or buying into hopelessness.
At the very worst, I am operating on a surplus of caution, preparing for the worst while still hoping for the best.
And for me, that concept of "best" merely consists of a revised definition of what America really is.


(I would define Pennsylvania as being red at this time, not blue.)



I COULD choose to just cut out Canada and call Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, California, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota and Illinois "America" and call the rest "Trumplandia" like it shows on my map.

Or I could include Canada in the hopes that Canada might be interested in acquiring some 130 to 140 million new hardworking taxpayers and a helluva lot of natural resources and high tech capabilities.

Either of those are extremely hopeful positions, the former being much more "apple pie American", the latter being a pragmatic and more economically responsible approach to future prosperity.

But the one thing I do KNOW in my heart and soul, is that it's a fact that Trumplandia WILL NEVER EVER make peace with the above parts of the country. They haven't in the 160 years since the Civil War. It's never going to happen.
I love all my dear friends who live down there but I see them as wonderful people who live in a foreign country.
I respect their decision to live there.
I tried my best to BE one of those people for thirteen years and it wasn't enough to measure up to the values that are held dear by a majority of people down there. I was still a Yankee as far as most people were concerned.
Thus, I was still, even after thirteen years, a foreigner.
I've just come to the conclusion that maybe those people were right.

I am no longer interested in trying to save some idiots in Kentucky who are determined to re-segregate schools,
(KY House Bill 151) or save health care for people who voted for the man who is determined to take it away from them, or fight to save a river two thousand miles from my home which had just cleaned up it's oil spills just in time for a law to be passed that allows the same companies to spill even more oil into it all over again, or try to stop a war that apparently GOD TOLD some wealthy men they had every right to start, or hold back gerrymandering which is bound to become enshrined in a state constitution should two more Republican legislators win their seats in the next three weeks, or fight to save overtime in a state that had already taken it from me ten years ago anyway.
We can get rid of Trump. We could get rid of FORTY Trumps.
Oh gee, forty down and forty million left to go?

That is the country they WANT.
I'm saving my humanity for protecting my family, my friends and my loved ones.

It's not that I suddenly hate my country.
I loved America. That country doesn't exist anymore except for a few small pockets with a giant cesspool in the middle.
It's just gone, plain and simple.

Maybe a new America will rise from the ashes, but probably not in my lifetime. Maybe, with a little luck, in my kids lifetimes.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#299334 - 03/07/17 07:17 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6691
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
call the rest "Trumplandia"


It already has a well-established name: Dumbf**kistan

These maps have been around for years.

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#299335 - 03/07/17 07:27 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40220
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

I could live with this new map. I have more in common with the folks in blue on this map, than I do with the red middle.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299336 - 03/07/17 07:48 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12499
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
call the rest "Trumplandia"


It already has a well-established name: Dumbf**kistan

These maps have been around for years.


Yeah, and sometimes they get revised a wee bit.
And this time, it is starting to look like this map is in earnest.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#299360 - 03/08/17 10:10 AM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40220
Loc: Puget Sound, WA



...and we should be a wall along our eastern and southern borders keeping those nasty red-state deplorables out.

smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299363 - 03/08/17 03:03 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8522
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Vote data 2016
Quote:
Projections from the United States Elections Project show that there were 231,556,622 Americans eligible to vote, but 138,884,643 voted. That means that 40 percent didnít vote, while 60 percent did. The voter turnout will likely increase as the popular vote continues to be counted.

Voting Eligible Population Ballots: 138,884,643 (60 percent)
Voter Eligible Population That Didnít Vote: 92,671,979 (40 percent
Voter Eligible Population Total: 231,556,622

It might be fun to divide the U.S. up into red states and blue states based on which went for whom (the map is somewhat inaccurate, btw - I know that NM went blue), but remember that in all of them there are many voters of both hues.

When I was a yoot up in Idaho, it was a SOLIDLY blue state based on large numbers of blue collar workers (timber, mining, farming). I vaguely remember the reddening of the mountain bluebird state as outside money from energy corporations (mainly Texas based) poured in to back Republican candidates, buying their votes on national big energy issues - I also remember an influx of wealthy 1st world Californians seeking seclusion and refuge in 3rd world Idaho. (One could be middle-class in CA, but rich in ID on the same money). With all the money came waves of gooey propaganda that gradually converted the blue collar workers from hating the oligarchs to hating liberals and environmentalists who were trying to protect what was left of the now heavily logged, mined, industrially farmed, and pigshit polluted landscape. The propagandists spun that effort to protect the environment into an assault on jobs. Voila! Idaho became a red state. The jobs went away anyhow, because of mechanization, depletion, and economics; but the New World View, created by corporate spin, continues to dominate in many peoples' minds.

You all know how Trump is crazy, right? He's delusional, narcissistic, self-absorbed, all too ready to believe rumors and innuendo - these are also the qualities that make people vulnerable to unethical salesmen. We all suffer from these frailties, to varying degrees. It's my opinion that the right wing suffers from them more, both in politicians who take advantage of voters' gullibility, and the gullibility of voters. But on the flip side, this human condition also makes it extremely difficult for top quality politicians (there are a few, and many more who would like to be) to advance truly good ideas (note the pragmatic resistance to Bernie Sanders displayed here at RR during the primaries).

Back to the voter numbers and the map... Trump was elected with quite a small number of votes. Some big fat guesses are that more than half of his votes came from gullible folks (see the Idaho story above) who suckered more for his sales pitch than for Clinton's. Some portion of his votes were from people who have a shallow ideological notion that they would prosper more with a Trump administration (in various way; money, racial dominance, religious dominance, power, etc.).

The potential vote number for the "liberal" way were huge, but the sales pitch neither turned out the apathetic, nor stimulated the dutiful. The undecideds who didn't vote (40% of all eligible voters) and half of Trump's voters (25% of eligible votes) equals 52% of the eligible vote that could have gone Left that didn't, if the Left only had a pitch that hooked people. Add to that the 27% that she did get (79%) and you can see that the nation is not that red!

Why is it so hard, then? Partly, it is because the Left is generally not comfortable with the snake-oil "alternative facts", propaganda, fear-mongering, and hyperbole that the Trumpests are so good at. This is not a character flaw, but it is a competitive disadvantage when the average human condition is one of mental laziness and gullibility.

The solution? Frankly, I don't know. It is not a natural thing for ethical people to toss ethics aside in order to "win", no matter how pragmatic the reason. But, as the Logtroll is fond of saying, "You can't solve a problem until you understand what the problem is..."
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299365 - 03/08/17 03:28 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6074
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I am a little disappointed as I was hoping you would say you have a solution looking for a problem.

I know it is not politically correct to mention such things but something stands out to me. Whether there is any real basis for this observation, I don't know, and I don't know if it makes any difference.

It struck me that a number of conservatives are 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of immigrants. What do the interlopers know about America and our democratic traditions? Maybe Americans have forgotten what it means to be American. Does the Tocquevillian notion of American exceptionalism even apply in a modern world?

Education is the key. "An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people." (paraphrase of Pres Jefferson). We have fallen into two broad camps of the educated and the ignorant, of fear and hopeful optimism. The specter of fascism has reared its head only because fear and ignorance are tolerated, endorsed and elevated to a virtue.

I do not care what ones conclusions are, but they must be immersed in logical, objective thought based on facts. We have entered a critical inflection zone in which a continuation down this path will guarantee the dissolution of democracy in America. Will we have real patriots willing to fight against this tyranny or will Americans quietly acquiesce to the wishes of a dictator?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299367 - 03/08/17 04:15 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: rporter314]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8522
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Education is the key. ...
Will we have real patriots willing to fight against this tyranny or will Americans quietly acquiesce to the wishes of a dictator?

I have these questions:

What does this education look like, and how is it accomplished?

What does the fighting look like?

I am all for good general education, and better educated people statistically seem to be more rational thinkers. But how do we get representatives who will work for better general education? There needs to be a successful sales pitch (another form of education) developed for this that will get the positive attention of the zombie voters.

I am ambivalent about the "fighting" angle. My assessment is the the Rightie activists are better fighters, because they are unethical. It appears that having vastly greater numbers of protesters is an effective optic, but the violent factions need to be suppressed. The most effective turnout strategy is to vote, as the title fight is the election.

One essential item needed for a top sales pitch is to have it delivered by a top salesman. Hillary was not a top salesman, though I observed that she was getting better at it. But learning to be a top salesman is no substitute for charisma. Especially in today's pervasive visual media world.

For some reason, conservatives don't seem to need as much charisma. Neither Bushes had much - Gore and Kerry were total duds. I would not have said that Trump has much, but I think he has plenty with some kinds of people - it's "negative" charisma. Carter was low on it, Reagan very high, Bill Clinton very high, and Obama very high (but sporadic). I suggest that charisma be the top characteristic of the next liberal candidate.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299368 - 03/08/17 04:27 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: logtroll]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12499
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Vote data 2016
Quote:
Projections from the United States Elections Project show that there were 231,556,622 Americans eligible to vote, but 138,884,643 voted. That means that 40 percent didnít vote, while 60 percent did. The voter turnout will likely increase as the popular vote continues to be counted.

Voting Eligible Population Ballots: 138,884,643 (60 percent)
Voter Eligible Population That Didnít Vote: 92,671,979 (40 percent
Voter Eligible Population Total: 231,556,622

It might be fun to divide the U.S. up into red states and blue states based on which went for whom (the map is somewhat inaccurate, btw - I know that NM went blue), but remember that in all of them there are many voters of both hues.


That said, it's easy to figure out what the majority is in a lot of them. New Mexico might be starting to turn purple but the GOP still runs most of the city and county government, and there is still enough of a Right Wing majority to keep them in there.

In the end, this is still a football game, whether we want it to be or not, so in the end, either the Blue Team wins or the Red Team wins. From a football perspective, the map is still somewhat accurate despite all the growing trends.
One thing is clear though. Civil war of some kind is an inevitability because you can get rid of a THOUSAND Trumps but you will still be stuck with all those people who would rather stick needles in their eye than not vote Republican, and the Republicans know this.
They know this because their chief skill lies in targeted messaging and proper investment in focused messaging tools.
They have spent literally billions and when someone spends billions, it's a good bet that at least SOME results are expected.
The result that the GOP expects is quite simply "the dismantling of the administrative state."
I can only think of maybe five Republicans who are willing to voice objections over a statement like that, thus their silence on Bannon's signature line of agitprop equals consent.
The phrase is a highly polished way of saying something much more despicable: the dismantling of liberal democracy in favor of corporate authoritarian theocracy along white supremacist lines and built on a foundation of purist libertarian anarcho-capitalist economics.
They also have spent billions on dismantling education, so that the kind of talk Bannon uses isn't subjected to critical thinking.
That is an INSURANCE policy, and a very long lasting one at that.
It's generational in scope.

I am not a betting man but I will place a bet on a breakup of this country that vaguely resembles the breakup of the USSR some time in the next ten to twenty years, and some sort of resulting internal war type reaction.

And I'd say it's a safe bet that the breakup is probably going to happen along lines vaguely similar to that map, give or take a couple of states here or there.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#299371 - 03/08/17 05:32 PM Re: Trump and Russia [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8522
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
NM is still pretty blue. The dems in the state are plagued with the same problem recently of gubernatorial candidates with low charisma running for office. Our single R Congressman comes from a part of the state that is essentially Texas oil country. The state lege is all blue by pretty solid margins.

Registered voters: 46% D; 31% R

NM political demographics
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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