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#299369 - 03/08/17 05:07 PM GOP at war with itself on health care
Jim D (FreeThinker) Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 3226
Loc: Aurora Ohio
GOP at war with itself on health care
Quote:
But many fellow Republicans don’t seem to be listening.

On Tuesday, less than 24 hours after the GOP health bill was launched, a powerful conservative backlash threatened to sink it.

or

Trumpcare heads for Disaster
Quote:
An interesting question about the Republicans’ rollout of their Obamacare repeal-and-replace plan was bubbling up among pundits and policy journalists on Tuesday. That question can be summed up this way: What the hell are GOP leaders doing?

The question stems from the very vocal opposition to the plan that sprang up the minute Republicans in the House released their bill on Monday night — not opposition from Democrats, which was to be expected. No, the loudest hostility came from Republican lawmakers, pundits and conservative-leaning think tanks like Heritage, Cato and others.

With any normal piece of legislation, the majority party could be expected to get a “buy-in” from all the “stakeholders” before writing and unveiling the bill. With something as large as repealing and replacing Obamacare, the majority party wants to present a united front, to signal to voters that it’s in control.

I can see it now, the GOP propaganda machine is revving up to blame the Dems for stalling this piece of s*** legislation, if one can call it that.

Governing??? Yeah, right, and pigs are flying all over the place.
_________________________
Jim

If you're incompetent, you can't know you're incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.

--David Dunning

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#299374 - 03/08/17 06:25 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
The idiot-ological differences preclude any hope of compromise. Conservatives believe some magical pixie powder will allow the free market do what it's never been able to do i.e. through free market sentience figure out what the public needs and provide the solution (universal healthcare).

Let conservatives own it.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299377 - 03/08/17 06:53 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
The idiot-ological differences preclude any hope of compromise. Conservatives believe some magical pixie powder will allow the free market do what it's never been able to do i.e. through free market sentience figure out what the public needs and provide the solution (universal healthcare).

Let conservatives own it.

CONservatives are not bright enough to see that the "free market" has already been tried in Chile during the Pinochet coup when MIliton Freeman's Chicago School of Economics theory was tried out. Prior to this coup, Freeman's theories were just on paper.

The result of Freeman's theory of free markets in Chile? Unimaginable high inflation and even higher unimaginable unemployment.

Free markets suck. Hmm A balanced regulated commerce is what is required. smile
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#299379 - 03/08/17 07:54 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12437
Loc: Whittier, California
Kansas and SEARS Corp. should be BOOMING right now...funny how both of those turned out, seeing as they both are obsessed with Randian principles of the free market.
_________________________
"Liberty is so important to "libertarians" that they think actually getting to exercise liberty should be a privilege that is overwhelmingly rationed in favor of the rich.
Recognizing this ought to tell us what we are dealing with."
---Piers Stephens

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#299383 - 03/08/17 09:53 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
Jim D (FreeThinker) Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 3226
Loc: Aurora Ohio
Whatever happens though will be blamed on the Democrats with the con base believing it.
_________________________
Jim

If you're incompetent, you can't know you're incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.

--David Dunning

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#299392 - 03/09/17 04:33 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
Perhaps the hope of Republican leaders is that this proposed legislation die a horrible, gruesome, public death... So that they can come back with a compromise bill in league with Democrats that will incorporate some market ideas to "improve" the ACA, declare victory, and move on.

The truth is that Obama already won. Americans want the ACA, they now believe healthcare is a right. Note we're just suckering over the price.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299394 - 03/09/17 04:39 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Whatever happens though will be blamed on the Democrats with the con base believing it.

They can blame Democrats all they want. They own this and when prices go up and people lose insurance they're gonna remember Donald Trump's promise of lower prices and insurance for everyone.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#299414 - 03/09/17 10:12 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
TatumAH Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 336
Loc: Upstate NY
Top Medicaid Official Comes out against TrumpCare
There is a traitor in Price's own shop who outed himself publicly. Ya cant have a real expert there who is actually doing what his oath of office requires, helping to get the best health care for the most people. They will dump him immediately as a severe threat to what I call:
TrumpDontCare.

Tat

Quote:
A senior Medicaid official broke with his own department Wednesday and came out publicly against the GOP’s bill to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act.

Andrey Ostrovsky, the chief medical officer for the Center for Medicaid and CHIP Services (CMCS), announced in a Twitter post that he was opposed to the Republican bill pending in the House. CMCS is a division within the Department of Health and Human Services. HHS Secretary Tom Price, a former Republican congressman, is the Trump administration's point person on Obamacare repeal and replace.

"Despite political messaging from others at HHS, I align with the experts from [American Academy of Family Physicians, American Academy of Pediatrics and American Medical Association] in opposition to #AHCA," Andrey Ostrovsky, chief medical officer for The Center for Medicaid and CHIP Services (CMCS), wrote on Twitter.

Despite political messaging from others at HHS, I align with the experts from @aafp @AmerAcadPeds @AmerMedicalAssn in opposition to #AHCA

— Andrey Ostrovsky, MD (@AndreyOstrovsky) March 9, 2017

Ostrovsky, an Obama appointee who assumed his role in September 2016, joins associations representing hospitals, doctors, seniors and insurers who have criticized the bill this week. Like Democrats and moderate conservatives who oppose the legislation, those groups say the proposal provides low-income and aging Americans with much fewer protections than they had under Obamacare.


Andy Slavitt, who ran the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid services under Obama and has heavily criticized the GOP bill, praised Ostrovsky as a “hero” on Twitter.

We should have a ton of admiration for @AndreyOstrovsky and what he did tonight.

In my book he's a hero. In his he just serves the public. https://t.co/f3UKTq6P1E

— Andy Slavitt (@ASlavitt) March 9, 2017

Ostrovsky thanked him for his support, noting that the AHCA fails to offer "rigor of evidence" for the drastic changes it makes to the Medicaid program.

@ASlavitt Thx Andy. I was hired to add rigor of evidence, introduce innovation, improvement principles to Medicaid. Current #AHCA not that.

— Andrey Ostrovsky, MD (@AndreyOstrovsky) March 9, 2017




Edited by TatumAH (03/09/17 10:14 PM)
_________________________
There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
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#299420 - 03/10/17 02:05 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
Just watched a CNN (360°) segment interviewing Trump supporters about the new healthcare plan. God, these people are delusional. They actually believed Trump would fulfill his promises, and are shocked that he's not representing their interests. Can you imagine?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299422 - 03/10/17 02:46 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
The ones I have rubbed against are incredibly stupid that way.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299431 - 03/10/17 10:06 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
Just watched a CNN (360°) segment interviewing Trump supporters about the new healthcare plan. God, these people are delusional. They actually believed Trump would fulfill his promises, and are shocked that he's not representing their interests. Can you imagine?

NOBODY has ever claimed that a Trump supporter was very bright. In fact, PBS found this to be true a year ago:

Trump overwhelmingly leads rivals in support from less educated Americans Hmm
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#299432 - 03/10/17 11:45 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
What the GOP fight with itself over healthcare demonstrates is the Party's incredible vacuity when it comes to policy. Neither side in this argument makes any sense. Sean Spicer had the temerity/gall to claim that the GOP plan was smaller "because it wasn't accommodating special interests." HA!

As Hillary Clinton pointed out, what the country needs for stability is a rejiggering of the tax system to increase taxes on the wealthy for the benefit of us all - to pay for infrastructure, fix Obamacare, and save SS and Medicare. The ACA was a start in the right direction, but it didn't go far enough. Virtually every aspect of the GOP plan will make the system worse - less coverage, more expensive, fewer subsidies, less oversight, and fiscally irresponsible to boot. Not only is the emperor not wearing any clothes, he's got profanity scrawled all over his body aimed at the voters.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#299433 - 03/10/17 12:21 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
2 things

1. the stack of papers was only for part #1 in a 3-part plan of attack in the R & R agenda. It did not address the numerous replacement clauses in too many existing laws to count. Should these folks get to part #3, I suspect their stack of papers will be at least as high and maybe more so.

2. I think you may be wrong on Mr Trump. I suspect he really believes he is doing something for the people but he is in a fight against ideologues, which he is not. Thus what you see is the ideological positions imputed to him.

The reason I believe this is he does not understand the issues like so many of his supporters and thus has a superficial command of them. Hence his reliance on his ideological allies and his crazy advisors.

It struck me as strange how odd he looked trying to negotiate a compromise among ideologues. Ideas do not have price tags or numerical qualities, so how does he as a real estate consummate negotiator think about this? We will have lots of losers (those who are supposed to be helped), since I suspect this is out of his hands. He is only there for the optics.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299435 - 03/10/17 06:13 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
the Party's incredible vacuity when it comes to policy.

And even strong words like these are an understatement. While I understand that fiscal responsibility has gone the way of the horse and buggy it is still a point which conservatives like to base their policies on. A big part of fiscal responsibility is to spend money in a timely fashion before problems multiply and expenses skyrocket. Health care is an example of this as is spending on infrastructure. Instead they've fallen into the Grover Norquist trap where tax cutting is the order of the day and for years have failed to allocate the necessary funds and increase taxes to pay for them.
This has led to a conundrum impossible for them to deal with.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#299437 - 03/10/17 06:42 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
he does not understand the issues

No he doesn't. But he applied for the job and claimed that he did.
Not many congressmen fell for his line but enough voters did to put him in office. The assumption that any Republican is better than any Democrat and, in particular, even Donald Trump is better than Hillary Clinton won the election for them. But now they have to govern.

Maybe Trump is a big old softy who wants all the little people to love him, but he is a firm believer in Voodoo economics. His route to making the working class happy is by making their corporate employers more wealthy. This is the same ideology that Republicans follow. So in that light they are on the same page.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#299490 - 03/12/17 02:32 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
ATHCYCA - the acronym for the ACA replacement bill subtitle...

All The Health Care You Can Afford (and if you can't afford much, whose fault is that, you lazy bastid?)
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299494 - 03/12/17 02:54 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
The problem for conservatives is how to write a bill which is based on conservatives principles of a free market and yet provide healthcare? The solution is simple. Write a bill which provides access in the guise of actually proving coverage.

They provided the access, now it is the responsibility of poor folks to provide the money to buy that access.

I suppose one could now write a variety if iterations covering other issues as well. Pollution, climate, guns, schools, etc, just pick as issue. It will be conservative Darwinism at its finest.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299496 - 03/12/17 02:57 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I'm really amazed at the casual way the rightie pols say, "Just go get a job with a company that will provide you with health insurance!"

The amazing part is that they can say this with their heads completely up their arses, without gagging or choking.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299499 - 03/12/17 05:27 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I am still waiting on the plan to put 93M people to work ...
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299507 - 03/12/17 08:36 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
The GOP leadership lost the race to get repeal through before reality caught up with their blatant lies: Expect the CBO to estimate large coverage losses from the GOP health care plan - Brookings.edu

I saw some of the Sunday talk shows and the shills we out in force. The level of dishonesty on display was amazing.

Given the detail of previous CBO estimates, I expect that up to 30 million people would lose coverage under the GOP plan (yes, more people than have gained coverage under Obamacare). The Brookings estimate is very conservative.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299509 - 03/12/17 08:52 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3680
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
I am still waiting on the plan to put 93M people to work ...

Galley rowing ships. “They" would be paid though--about half the minimum wage. Aside from putting millions back to work it could also be promoted as an environmentally friendly mode of transport. No burned fossil fuels and all of that..........
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#299514 - 03/12/17 09:28 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ken Condon]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Feeding your rowers could get expensive. I know where you could find a lot of people you would not have to feed much: Just go round them up at every WalMart.

You could sell it as a job program combined with a weight-loss program! LOL

Seriously though, my 62 year old wife is in a quandary: Should she go find a job with an employer that supplies group coverage, or can she just coast on ACA for three more years? Republican plans would charge her 5x instead of 3x, but give her $4000. What's the difference? Unless they kill ACA with no replacement, because they don't have the votes to do anything but do have the votes to death spiral ACA.

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#299523 - 03/13/17 12:09 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
The race to the bottom..."yeah, we can win that race!"

To quote our feckless liter: "We're gonna win so much, you may even get tired of winning."
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#299526 - 03/13/17 01:42 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
"Access to healthcare" means you can have whatever you can afford.

Paul Ryan's emphasis on "economic freedom" means better off people won't be forced to support the insurance pool.

This whole thing is a dance around the competing ideologies of healthcare as a social responsibility; and narrow, selfish capitalism.

I say narrow, selfish capitalism, because in the big picture, I believe that socialized healthcare would support the more pragmatic and productive economic system.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299529 - 03/13/17 03:39 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
"We're gonna win so much, you may even get tired of winning."

If this is winning I'm already tired of it.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#299531 - 03/13/17 03:46 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Trumpcare is as dead on arrival as life behind Melania Trump's eyes:

_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299532 - 03/13/17 03:47 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
I have concluded that when a rightie says "winning", they only mean that they are being successful at wrecking things that liberals (and other sane people) want.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299533 - 03/13/17 03:48 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Trump's assault on poor people begins in earnest, because the military industrial complex needs that sweet, sweet government welfare more than poor people do.
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#299535 - 03/13/17 03:56 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


Six pages of Trumpcare a devoted to the hypothetical event of what happens when a poor person wins their states' Lottery. Six pages are lot given how the few pages in the bill there are.
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#299536 - 03/13/17 03:57 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA



Um...literally everybody knew that Health care is complicated - expect you, Mr. Failed Businessman. Sad!
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Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299544 - 03/13/17 09:50 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
wow I am in utter (not udder) amazement

Originally Posted By: Sec Price
[the administration] disagree[s] strenuously with the report that was put out


he actually said he very very very strenuously disagrees, which in Trumpland makes it true
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299547 - 03/13/17 10:14 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Obviously, every Republican is lying about their health insurance plan, one way or another. But it has real consequences: Real medical bankruptcies, real people denied coverage, real people dying. The facts will all come out, if they can pass it. We'll be able to add up the cost in dollars and lives, for years after the fact.

Are they really planning on staying in politics after hurting so many people? Or is this some kind of final con-job before they all flee ahead of the tar and feathers?

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#299548 - 03/13/17 10:38 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
TatumAH Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 336
Loc: Upstate NY
You can always tell when one of their lies is imminent, as it is prefaced by: "And the fact of the matter is ________ fill in the bullscheis da jour. Should at least go with: and the alternate-fact of the matter is...

Tat
_________________________
There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit

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#299550 - 03/14/17 02:39 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Obviously, every Republican is lying about their health insurance plan, one way or another. But it has real consequences: Real medical bankruptcies, real people denied coverage, real people dying. The facts will all come out, if they can pass it. We'll be able to add up the cost in dollars and lives, for years after the fact.

Are they really planning on staying in politics after hurting so many people? Or is this some kind of final con-job before they all flee ahead of the tar and feathers?

Republican Death Panels gobsmacked
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299552 - 03/14/17 08:06 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
One thing I find hilarious: They don't even seem to realize how health care works. I have an insurance plan (Blue Cross), a Medical Group (Scripps Physicians) and a Primary Care Physician. I also have some specialists within that Medical Group I can go to directly, but for anything new I go to my PCP first.

Republicans are always talking about a health care "market" that doesn't exist, as if I can shop for prices and then go to any doctor anywhere with the best price. They act as if I could shop for the best drug prices: I am in a Medicare Plan C so my drug prices are all going to be exactly the same everywhere, because they made it that way.

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#299553 - 03/14/17 12:57 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
One thing I find hilarious: They don't even seem to realize how health care works. ...
Republicans are always talking about a health care "market" that doesn't exist, as if I can shop for prices and then go to any doctor anywhere with the best price.

Good points, which bring the focus to the common confusing conflation of "health insurance" and "health care". Leaving aside health care for the moment (since the ACA, no matter which version, is only about insurance plans), insurance of any kind is a fundamentally socialist model ("socialist" meaning that people act as a group for mutual benefit). Insurance is people grouping together (pooling) to distribute risk. On average, everyone pays more for their eventual health care under this model than they would if they just paid for it as needed - the basic reason being the cost of managing the pool, and secondarily the cost of profit, if the insurance is a private venture.

The heartburn over the ACA is that it is an attempt to make a Frankenstein's monster out of the need to regulate "free market capitalism" (which, on it's own, excludes large numbers of people from the "market", thus negating the essence of the concept of "insurance"), and the social need to get everyone a decent level of health care.

Other "free market" shortcomings are due to the fact that the market for insurance is not nimble - buying into a "plan" is a fairly long-term commitment and many restrictions are embedded into the contract that inhibit plan swapping.

It is possible to have more "free market" health care, that is not connected to health insurance. I know of some examples of physicians who quit taking insurance and who are supposedly making just as much money off of co-pay level revenues. I haven't heard much about it recently - don't know if that means it doesn't work or if it just doesn't make the news. But such a model still does not address the major health crises.

Unfortunately, while the debate is mired in the mess of how to force a social need into a free market model, we are prevented from rationally considering how to pragmatically provide our society with adequate health care. The conservative ideology of capitalism and the free market ruling above all else has put them (and us) in an impossible situation.
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#299554 - 03/14/17 02:24 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
The Republican/conservative problem is predicated on the fact they never wanted anything to do with any plan involving health care (insurance). But ACA made it impossible for them to ignore. Thus they had to devise an ideological plan in an attempt to address health care (insurance).

Ideologically they had to remove government from the equation and thus they have to formulate something based on the "free market". The problem is the "free market" never found a solution for people who are too poor to afford the high cost of insurance or emergency health care. Now Republicans/conservatives believe? they can provide a solution.

The CBO score characterizes the Ryan/Trump plan for what it is i.e. no government involvement. Thus people will loose insurance through either lack of affordable plans or forced ending of medicaid. Of course the plan will save $337B/10 yrs since they have removed government payments/taxes. Of course the cost of insurance will go down because only healthy people will remain in pool.

The Republican/conservative rebuttal is better coverage. So what they want to sell are plans in which there are low deductibles at very affordable prices. They believe a carrier in SC will offer a plan to someone in Utah at lower costs than local health care costs. No company would do that but they would where they could make money. Thus the local market determines plan prices regardless of where one buys it.

Free market competition does not drives prices lower than health care costs. If health care cost drivers continue to rise, plan prices will rise commensurately. I have not seen anything in the Republican/conservative plan which addresses health care cost drivers, other than to say free market competition will force the costs lower.

Every plan must have three things to achieve the basic goal of affordable "universal" health care.
1. the itemized list of no pre-existing, no caps, etc
2. a large pool of healthy people who are required to maintain a plan
3. programs to cut health care cost drivers

Notice this does not have to be a government operated program, but it does have to be government instituted.

I am thinking of an organizational change to implement universal health care. Create a single group with an algorithm to apportion buy in and share profits, with flexibility for changing composition. A single group would reduce organizational overhead. Offer single priced comprehensive plans with national coverage. Create a board for intelligent medical procedures. Create a plan for increasing medical personnel to adequately cover rural and urban centers. Everyone must buy a plan.

Just rambling spitballing
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#299555 - 03/14/17 02:35 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
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Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: rporter314
...Free market competition does not drives prices lower than health care costs. ...


Distilled to it's most basic truth, the conservatives are wanting to con us into believing that they can do an impossible thing with enough waving of the free market, anti-government wand.
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#299558 - 03/14/17 03:55 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: logtroll]
Ma_Republican Offline
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: rporter314
...Free market competition does not drives prices lower than health care costs. ...


Distilled to it's most basic truth, the conservatives are wanting to con us into believing that they can do an impossible thing with enough waving of the free market, anti-government wand.





The solution is for Republicans to do nothing. Let Obamacare die a painful and public death, then do nothing again. The federal government should never have become involved in healthcare, it should be a states issue.

Tim
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#299559 - 03/14/17 04:15 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The federal government should never have become involved in healthcare

But they did and there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Quote:
it should be a states issue.

Perhaps. California is considering a state sponsored single payer health insurance system. If it works, other states might follow suit.

Quote:
The solution is for Republicans to do nothing.

Which is what they do best.
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#299561 - 03/14/17 04:25 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
it should be a states issue.

Perhaps. California is considering a state sponsored single payer health insurance system. If it works, other states might follow suit.

NM is working on legislation that "goes far enough", except we have a moron Republican governor who will probably veto it.

Originally Posted By: Greger
Quote:
The solution is for Republicans to do nothing.

Which is what they do best.

I disagree... what they do best is destroy things.
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#299562 - 03/14/17 05:42 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
and here we have the fundamental difference in political philosophies. I believe there exists a contractual agreement of which I am one part and the party of the second part is the federal government created as a result of me agreeing to the contract. In that agreement there is this line
Originally Posted By: Constitution
promote the general Welfare
. In other words while you ignore or reject the contract, I see the federal government has an obligation mandated by the contract to provide those services.

What services you ask? Ask yourself the question, does universal healthcare promote the general welfare? If you answer anything other than yes, disingenuous is the most charitable I can be.

The only question remaining is how it can be done.


Edited by rporter314 (03/14/17 05:43 PM)
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#299563 - 03/14/17 05:43 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1568
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
This is a wonderful thing! The congress approval rating is at an all time low. Now, however, it seems that the log jams are all on the right. Perhaps there should be an approval rating by party? This is yet another nail in their (hopefully) coffin (a gift that just keeps on giving). Just think, in two months Trump has, yet again, been proven a known liar and the Republican congress can't even vaguely get together and do something.

Interesting times............

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#299566 - 03/14/17 06:18 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
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#299568 - 03/14/17 07:30 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
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Vox has a really good explainer of the CBO analysis of Trumpcare. I'm noting this part:

Quote:
CBO expects that a 64-year-old who earns $20,000 would see her premiums rise from $1,700 to $14,600 under the Republican plan — a 758 percent increase. She’d be expected to spend more than half her annual income on health insurance.


Sucks to be you, grandma! Let's all watch that ad about Paul Ryan throwing grandma off a cliff again from 2011:

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#299569 - 03/14/17 08:07 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: jgw]
Ma_Republican Offline
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: jgw
This is a wonderful thing! The congress approval rating is at an all time low. Now, however, it seems that the log jams are all on the right. Perhaps there should be an approval rating by party? This is yet another nail in their (hopefully) coffin (a gift that just keeps on giving). Just think, in two months Trump has, yet again, been proven a known liar and the Republican congress can't even vaguely get together and do something.

Interesting times............

If we stop this now, we save future generations from hAving to pony up to support healthcare. If we don't, we commit financial genocide. The decision is really easy and should be obvious to the Republicans; do nothing and they bear no blame for the disaster that was Obama care. Do anything and take ownership of this very bad idea. Seems simple to me, and I am pretty sure it is going to happen, as long as you Dems stay on the Blame Trump sideline. Obama care was a bad idea, is a bad idea and will continue to be a bad idea. BTW, screw the party of the first part, the party of the second part, the party you forget to mention, doesn't want to underwrite the exploding premiums that were caused by the previous administration's bad judgement.
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#299571 - 03/14/17 08:32 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The congress approval rating is at an all time low.

As much as I wish this were true it simply isn't so...


Quote:
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Congressional job approval jumped to 28% this month from 19% in January. This is the largest month-to-month increase since a 12-percentage-point rise between January 2009, when former President Barack Obama was first inaugurated, and February 2009. The current 28% job approval rating is the highest since early fall 2009 and is close to Gallup's historical average (30%). The increase comes after Donald Trump's inauguration as president gave Republicans control of the presidency and both houses of Congress.
Gallup
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#299572 - 03/14/17 08:46 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
If we stop this now, we save future generations from hAving to pony up to support healthcare.

One way or another future generations are going to have to pony up and pay for healthcare. Government can make it easier or harder. Or government can do nothing and it will inherently get harder until government has to do something to make it easier.
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#299574 - 03/14/17 08:58 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
I think we are ignoring a very important fact here: Nobody thinks it is the federal government's responsibility to provide either health care or insurance.

What we are conflicted about is a set of laws and regulations that define how insurance has to work. Democrats say insurance has to be real insurance (everyone in the same pool, no exclusions, no caps) and Republicans say it should be any piece of crap the insurance companies want to sell (very selective pools, exclusions, and caps).

Well, we already had the Republican version of "insurance" for centuries and it gave us medical bankruptcies, closed hospitals, lack of rural care, very dangerous (to everybody) public health problems like homeless people walking around spreading TB, and so forth. Why would we want to go back to that non-functional model of laws and regulations?

It absolutely IS the federal government's duty to provide governance that counters the worst that businesses can do. By their very nature, businesses only purpose is to make money. Government has to supply their conscience because they have no incentive to do it themselves.

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#299577 - 03/14/17 10:45 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I think we are ignoring a very important fact here: Nobody thinks it is the federal government's responsibility to provide either health care or insurance.


Au contraire, mon frere! Many of us think it is the federal government's responsibility to provide health care insurance. Our colleague in Massachusetts feels that each state should handle it individually, but insurance works best when the pool is largest. breaking it into 50 small groups would make it more expensive and less profitable for the insurance companies who would contract it out.
There always seems to be a disagreement about what is or is not the job of the federal government. We all agreed a long time ago that it's better to let the feds handle the military rather than breaking it into state militias and trying to organize them into a single fighting unit during times of war.
And we agree that certain aspects of government are best handled by cities, counties, or states.
Every citizen needs health insurance at least comparable to what Medicare provides. Who better to administer it than the giant bureaucracy that makes up the federal government?
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#299578 - 03/14/17 11:31 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Always amazes me when people like you believe the Constitution was written only for you.

What if Mr Trump proposes the idea all poor people, unhealthy people, unemployed people, Muslims, and any other folks you don't like are rounded up and deported to the Arctic. Since you don't like the Constitution, would this be an idea you could support????
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#299590 - 03/15/17 07:03 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
I think the idea that states should do certain things and the federal government shouldn't is nothing but misdirection. Why should it be the state? Why not the county? Why not the city?

Saying that states should do something is just a way of saying no government should do it. As such I think everybody shouting about States Rights is an ahole who could not debate his way out of a paper bag.

But aside from that detour, some of us Socialists think Government should supply health care for all and collect the taxes to pay for it, but most of us don't. So I was avoiding that particular argument as hopelessly idealistic. The vast majority of the US will not be ready for sensible socialist solutions for many decades.

So ignoring that, we come to the reality on the ground today: The ACA or the AHCA is not at all about the government supplying health care. It already does that in the VA and military on a massive scale and does a great job. It is about laws regulating insurance companies. And the bottom line is Democrats want laws that protect people and Republicans want laws that do not protect them, make them lose coverage, make them sick, and kill them.

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#299592 - 03/15/17 02:18 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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What is conveniently ignored by "originalists" and other faux-constitutional argumentists, is that the Constitution created a federal government to address issues that cross State boundaries. (Ironically, Republicans are touting exactly that when arguing to allow insurance companies to sell across State lines.) Americans are mobile, and many issues need to have national/uniform solutions. Health care is one of those issues, directly tied to "the general welfare."

Take, for example, a truck driver. A truck driver, by definition, routinely crosses State lines. Should his health care be determined by his route? Or a vacationer. Should my health choices be limited by my recreational location? Both activities involve "interstate commerce", a subject explicitly given to the national government by the Constitution (for very obvious reasons).

One solution would be for the federal government to simply mandate minimum coverage requirements and let States decide how to provide it. Oh, wait... That's the ACA. I GUESS IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL AFTER ALL.

I completely agree the "States rights" argument is bogus and a deliberate distraction. That there is an ideological cabal on the Supreme Court that refuses to adhere to the actual Constitution doesn't make it any less so. Provision of health care to all Americans is a national crisis that is not amenable to State-by-State or market-based solutions, as centuries of history demonstrate. The ACA was never intended to be a final solution, but a start.

By the way, the argument that it will fail on its own is also completely bogus. For nearly a decade Republican ideologues have been trying to kill it, hamstring it, undercut it... And STILL millions of Americans are getting healthcare because of it, and premiums are rising at lower rates within the exchanges, rather than outside of them. The ACA provides more choices than non-ACA markets (contrary to another Republican lie). Were​ it not for ideological interference, millions more Americans would already be covered, premium rises would slow further, and markets would stabilize. That's the facts, Jack.
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#299594 - 03/15/17 02:59 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Right now we have 50 states providing 50 different versions of health insurance, nothing changes, except that my money doesn't have to go to the federal government so they can screw insurance up even more than they have already. I bitched and moaned that Obamacare was a fraud and shell game. You liberal hero's were determined to force it down America's throat. Well, you were successful, you forced it down America's throat, and up America's ass, and you deserve all of the blame that will go along with a very bad piece of legislation. It was more important to you to pass it than it was to make sure it worked. Guess what, it didn't and it can't. What you want is another federal entitlement, that is a very bad idea.

So, I am unapologetic. Obamacare is a disaster and should be allowed to run its course. Not one Republican voted for it and not one Republican should vote to bail it out.
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#299595 - 03/15/17 03:04 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
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Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

By the way, the argument that it will fail on its own is also completely bogus. For nearly a decade Republican ideologues have been trying to kill it, hamstring it, undercut it... And STILL millions of Americans are getting healthcare because of it, and premiums are rising at lower rates within the exchanges, rather than outside of them. The ACA provides more choices than non-ACA markets (contrary to another Republican lie). Were​ it not for ideological interference, millions more Americans would already be covered, premium rises would slow further, and markets would stabilize. That's the facts, Jack.


Cool, see there. Obamacare is working just fine. Nothing to do, nothing to see here, move along.

I agree with NW, we do not have to do anything. Obamacare is a splendid piece of legislation.
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#299596 - 03/15/17 04:01 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 159
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Right now we have 50 states providing 50 different versions of health insurance, nothing changes, except that my money doesn't have to go to the federal government so they can screw insurance up even more than they have already. I bitched and moaned that Obamacare was a fraud and shell game. You liberal hero's were determined to force it down America's throat. Well, you were successful, you forced it down America's throat, and up America's ass, and you deserve all of the blame that will go along with a very bad piece of legislation. It was more important to you to pass it than it was to make sure it worked. Guess what, it didn't and it can't. What you want is another federal entitlement, that is a very bad idea.

So, I am unapologetic. Obamacare is a disaster and should be allowed to run its course. Not one Republican voted for it and not one Republican should vote to bail it out.


A few questions for our esteemed Ma_Republican. Since insurance (Health, Auto, Home, etc) is a regulated market in each state how do the Republicans plan to continue to regulate that market if it is permitted to sell across state lines?

Since Ins companies are set up by state, as independent companies. Thus isolating the parent company and its other subsidiaries from losses of any one or more subsidiaries in other states. How do Republicans plan to isolate the health insurance purchasers in other states from rising rates due to losses in another state, if an Ins company is permitted to sell across state lines?

Since Obamacare, AKA Affordable Care Act, at its core is essentially Romneycare, currently operating in Massachusetts. If Obamacare is broken and collapsing what does that say about Romneycare?
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#299599 - 03/15/17 05:52 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ujest Shurly]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
RomneyCare was superseded by ACA in Massachusetts.

And "selling across state lines" is complete BS. No insurance company will ever do that, because their premiums are calculated on health care costs in each state. They don't pay out certain amounts, they cover certain procedures. Those covered procedure have different costs for the insurance companies in different states. If a cheap-state company wanted to sell a policy in an expensive-state they would have to charge the rates for the expensive-state. So the whole idea of buying a cheaper policy from some other state just falls apart.

Besides, most insurance companies sell policies that tie you to a specific medical group in their state (or even in their county!). What are you going to do, fly from New York to Kentucky every time you want to see your doctor?

This fundamental misunderstanding of how insurance works is just another of many retold endlessly by Republicans, who care more about rhetorical bulletpoints than reality.

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#299604 - 03/15/17 09:10 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Strange how conservatives will spend an inordinate amount of typing tie to say something which could have been said in 3 words.

MA-Republican hates ACA

Now had you offered a supporting factual argument why you have such an intense emotional response to ACA .... well then type on
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#299605 - 03/15/17 09:29 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ujest Shurly]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Shirley - MA-Republican can not offer any arguments for or against any ideas associate with implementation of any health care plan since he ideologically believes they should not exist. So there is no point in asking. It is the standard ultra conservative belief the federal government should be not only legally limited but bounded by original number of federal employees in 1790 ( I am a little hyperbolic). MA-Republican would probably feel a lot better if there were no federal government at all, then he could rail against state government as overreaching and overbearing, and when that is dissolved he would rail against etc etc you get the picture. But let me not speak for MA-Republican after all those are my conclusions based on what he has typed on many previous occasions.

The idea from conservatives of cross border competition boggles my mind. On the one hand they believe in less government and on this hand they believe they should take away control from the states. On a purely Constitutional grounds every state should have standing to reverse this. And this is apparently one of the major planks for lowering prices. It is not a free market of the federal government is manipulating the controls.
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#299606 - 03/15/17 09:40 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I think what Spkr Ryan is proposing as succinctly as I possibly can is a plan in which everyone but those in high risk categories are pooled, which makes for low premium costs and for all high risk folks pooled to pay extremely high premium costs.

What he is proposing is a perversion of insurance. An example: he will only insure those who are actuarially not a risk of having an accident i.e. those prices will be very low or is that an inducement to get your vote for lowering your premium costs artificially? and all the other folks are pooled to pay high premiums which will be partially paid by the federal government so the low risk pool does not see their money from taxes going to the insurance of the high risk pool. What a plan.

Spkr Ryan does not understand insurance but he does understand political manipulation.
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#299607 - 03/15/17 10:40 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
You want to make some real progress on health care costs?

Institute some simple changes. Medical school is free but you have to work for a non-profit hospital or practice for 10 years at $50,000 per year. Doctors can make any salary but anything over $250,000 is taxed at 100%. Hospitals and medical groups have to be non-profits and all salaries are capped at $250K per year in the same manner. Drug prices have to reflect the cost to manufacture them plus 1000% profit. (So no more $100 per year drug cost with $65,000 price tag because you have a patent.)

I'm sure there are some other simple ideas. Somebody (or more likely several bodies) are getting rich as Croesus off medicine in this country. It doesn't have to be this way. Plenty of people would still want to be doctors with these restrictions, just fewer people who are only in it for the money.

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#299618 - 03/16/17 03:47 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I apologise that much has passed since I began this post, but I want to finish my thoughts.

Ma R, I've never seen you apologetic about anything. It is part of your charm. grin

What your argument ignores are these fundamental points of reality:
1) pre-ACA, nearly a third of all Americans were without health coverage.
2) Medicare and Medicaid provide a wide variety of choice and cover more than more than a third of all Americans.
3) the CBO numbers were correct prior to interference by Republicans and 19 Republican governors refusing to cover their own citizens with expanded Medicaid.
4) US medical outcomes are at the bottom of developed countries (and many third world and developing countries).
5) there is a national shortage of medical providers, which is doing more to drive up costs than any national policy.

Food for thought.
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#299619 - 03/16/17 04:09 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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Loc: Highlands, Tx
I have to chuckle NWP as the MA Republican is much akin to Sec Price in their respectively similar ideology. Neither gives a damn about health care of anyone else. So any appeal to statistics falls on deaf ears.

I listened to some of the Price townhall and in typical ultra conservative fashion he ignored questions and answered some with beliefs. If he had been honest, he would have told the audience he really didn't care if anyone got health care, but because liberals passed a law which tried to cover people and they liked it, conservatives had to devise a plan which appears like it does the same thing.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299623 - 03/16/17 05:39 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Nobody wants to come right out and say they want poor people to die. It would make reelection harder.

You gotta do that old political shuffle: One step forward, then two steps back...

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#299627 - 03/16/17 08:42 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I apologise that much has passed since I began this post, but I want to finish my thoughts.

Ma R, I've never seen you apologetic about anything. It is part of your charm. grin

What your argument ignores are these fundamental points of reality:
1) pre-ACA, nearly a third of all Americans were without health coverage.
2) Medicare and Medicaid provide a wide variety of choice and cover more than more than a third of all Americans.
3) the CBO numbers were correct prior to interference by Republicans and 19 Republican governors refusing to cover their own citizens with expanded Medicaid.
4) US medical outcomes are at the bottom of developed countries (and many third world and developing countries).
5) there is a national shortage of medical providers, which is doing more to drive up costs than any national policy.

Food for thought.


It is a really simple equation here, the American people should not be forced to pay for their neighbor's health insurance at a federal level. You want socialized medicine, get it passed through your state legislature and raise state taxes to pay for it. The federal government is not capable of managing a simple trust fund, how will it be able to manage a huge entitlement? Hey, the previous guy promised that costs would go down and that I could keep my health plan. The skeptic in me would argue that he lied to us, but the liberal part of me argues that he had nothing but our best interests in mind when he added nearly 10% of all Americans to a government run monstrosity for free. He knew we wouldn't mind taking care of our neighbors and strangers. I mean, what would I have done with that extra $300 to $500 per month?

Look, I make no bones about it, this is about taking care of me and mine. The extra money that health insurance has cost me since Obamacare was forced upon America could have been used for the good of my family, even if was to take a family vacation. You can argue all you want what you insist is right or wrong, I don't care. America was founded and thrived on the thought that Americans took care of themselves. It has become painfully obvious that Obamacare will not work. America does not want to have their pockets picked to pay for other peoples largess. It all comes down to a simple question, why should my family go without? Why should I have to pick up the tab for somebody else? Obamacare has become the federal version of a gofundme account, except this gofundme account is mandatory and the money is being used to support a total stranger whose only need has been created by the federal government's need to impose its will upon the people who elected them.

I want my party to do NOTHING! Let's see what Obamacare will do over the next few years. Let's see if it was made to last or destined to fail. My guess, this thing will sink like a rock. Why throw good money after bad? Let it fail and see if something new can be created that would actually work and be sustainable. Obamacare cannot work, it never could have worked. All of the lies that we were told by its namesake, that costs would go down, that all would be good in the world, that it would free us from our worries and make is feel like we made a difference, and all of the other BS dogma that the last guy spouted, has come home to roost. Let Obamacare stand or fall on its own merits. Maybe it gets replaced, maybe it doesn't, but the experiment has been proven to be a failure. It cannot be saved.

Why should any Republican try to save Obama's masterpiece of disaster? Let it die, chalk it up to yet another liberal idea that didn't last because idealism and realism are opposites.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299628 - 03/16/17 08:55 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
You want to make some real progress on health care costs?

Institute some simple changes. Medical school is free but you have to work for a non-profit hospital or practice for 10 years at $50,000 per year. Doctors can make any salary but anything over $250,000 is taxed at 100%. Hospitals and medical groups have to be non-profits and all salaries are capped at $250K per year in the same manner. Drug prices have to reflect the cost to manufacture them plus 1000% profit. (So no more $100 per year drug cost with $65,000 price tag because you have a patent.)

I'm sure there are some other simple ideas. Somebody (or more likely several bodies) are getting rich as Croesus off medicine in this country. It doesn't have to be this way. Plenty of people would still want to be doctors with these restrictions, just fewer people who are only in it for the money.


Once again, the liberal solution is force private business to give away their product. Free medical school? We can call it Obamaschool!

Nothing can save Obamacare. It is an unworkable solution. The real solution is to have the government nationalize all heath insurance companies. That wouldn't work either, but it would accomplish the liberal dream of state run healthcare.

Guys and girls, let's be honest for a minute. The way that this has been implemented is wrong. If there is one part of society that is unqualified to run a conglomerate it is Congress. They bend to the will of the public, they change policy every other year when election season opens up. Look what happened! They tried to implement something good, but something really expensive. The people complained, the states refused and the program is dying a slow painful death. Every time I read that another large insurance company is pulling out of a state I cringe. What is worse than not have something? Losing what you had. You make it seem like it is OK that they lost their insurance, everybody else will pick up the slack. You are wrong! People do not want to pick up the slack, they want things to be the way they were 8 short years ago. It is an uphill battle, and the left is losing. I hope that the Obamacare replacement legislation fails. That would just about ensure that Obamacare will fail under its own weight.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299629 - 03/16/17 12:16 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Crashing and burning has always worked to better the human condition - at least in the imaginations of those of us who know that we are exceptional, and we will prosper carefree when all the unexceptional people are marginalized to non-existence.

It is important to obstinately refuse to collaborate with others in seeking solutions. Compromise is a loser's play. The concept of "the general welfare" is evil and cannot be allowed to live. Case in point: where would Donald Trump be in the list of richest men if he stooped to paying the people he owes money to?

I intend to win this game of life, even if I die in the attempt...
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299630 - 03/16/17 12:42 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: logtroll]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Crashing and burning has always worked to better the human condition - at least in the imaginations of those of us who know that we are exceptional, and we will prosper carefree when all the unexceptional people are marginalized to non-existence.

It is important to obstinately refuse to collaborate with others in seeking solutions. Compromise is a loser's play. The concept of "the general welfare" is evil and cannot be allowed to live. Case in point: where would Donald Trump be in the list of richest men if he stooped to paying the people he owes money to?

I intend to win this game of life, even if I die in the attempt...


I must remind you that Obamacare was passed on a straight party line vote, all requests for compromise were ignored and rejected. As for owing money, I pay my bills and honor my commitments. This commitment was never accepted by the right, and the right is by no means honor bound to uphold the disaster that is Obamacare.

The left made the commitment, if it isn't terminated now, it will become an entitlement, that is unacceptable. Maybe, after Obamacare is swept up in the trash bin of history, a real solution can be implemented, but a national solution being run by the fed is an unacceptable idea. It worked so well this time around, the next time will be worse.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299631 - 03/16/17 01:09 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Atta boy! NO COMPROMISE!! The Dems did it without R support (or so the myth goes), so now the R's should BLOW IT ALL UP WITHOUT A VIABLE PLAN!!

Then we can sift the the smoking wreckage and build up a NEW EXCEPTIONAL SOCIETY out of ashes and burnt ground.

Or we could do the sensible thing and agree that health is a wise general welfare thing and all work together to make it better? Maybe accept that paying taxes is a good thing, and mindlessly reducing taxes is a boneheaded race to dystopia?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299632 - 03/16/17 01:22 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: logtroll]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Atta boy! NO COMPROMISE!! The Dems did it without R support (or so the myth goes), so now the R's should BLOW IT ALL UP WITHOUT A VIABLE PLAN!!

Then we can sift the the smoking wreckage and build up a NEW EXCEPTIONAL SOCIETY out of ashes and burnt ground.

Or we could do the sensible thing and agree that health is a wise general welfare thing and all work together to make it better? Maybe accept that paying taxes is a good thing, and mindlessly reducing taxes is a boneheaded race to dystopia?


I never said I wanted the Republican Congress to blow it up. I said I wanted them to do nothing. Let's see where this version goes, who knows, maybe it will become a great success? ROTFMOL

Health is a wise and desired thing, but it should not be a national entitlement. It should be run by the individual states, and maybe partially underwritten by the Fed. That is as far as I would be willing to fund. I mean, hell, planned parenthood is being funded by the fed, I suppose that some kind of men's health network could be funded also.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299633 - 03/16/17 01:24 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 596
The republican congress was invited to attend the healthcare meetings during it's drafting stage. None attended. The republicans were given the material to go back to the districts they represented and present the information to their constituents. None did, or worse demonized it. Democrats were met with hostile tea partiers angry and upset with a head full of flies put in their with dark monies backing republicans. Death panels, etc....
Republicans declared it unconstitutional and would die at the feet of the supreme court. It did not.
Republicans voted over fifty times to repeal it in congress but it didn't happen.
Republicans cut at it, court challenged it and refused to expand it's benefits in the states that had republican majorities.
Republicans in congress howled at the thought of failing as their grandparents and great grandparents did in their failure to stop social security.
Not this time though.....
The GOP now has a chance to rip it out by the root and their politictal sharia ideology commands them to obey.
Tell me Ma, where in the constitution does it say the federal government must defer to free markets and political campaign money rather than it's enumerated duties outlined in the constitution?
By the way, how do you square the presidents campaign promises to make healthcare coverage for everyone, (we godda do this, folks") to your own 'free market' ideology that was crushing larger portions of the citizenry with it's faster rising premiums than it has been under ACA?



Edited by chunkstyle (03/16/17 01:28 PM)

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#299634 - 03/16/17 01:55 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8478
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Health is a wise and desired thing, but it should not be a national entitlement. It should be run by the individual states, and maybe partially underwritten by the Fed. That is as far as I would be willing to fund. I mean, hell, planned parenthood is being funded by the fed, I suppose that some kind of men's health network could be funded also.

You are all over the map, Ma.

Why shouldn't basic health care be a part of the national general welfare?
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#299635 - 03/16/17 02:21 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: chunkstyle]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

The GOP now has a chance to rip it out by the root and their politictal sharia ideology commands them to obey.
Tell me Ma, where in the constitution does it say the federal government must defer to free markets and political campaign money rather than it's enumerated duties outlined in the constitution?
By the way, how do you square the presidents campaign promises to make healthcare coverage for everyone, (we godda do this, folks") to your own 'free market' ideology that was crushing larger portions of the citizenry with it's faster rising premiums than it has been under ACA?



There is nothing in the Constitution that precludes the government from becoming a Health Insurer, however history tells us that they are unable to balance their checkbooks, what would make us think that they could manage national health insurance? It would be a bigger disaster than what Obamacare is today.

There is nothing in the constitution that says that the government must supply health insurance to the population either. As a matter of fact, most people before this enlightened liberal time, attributed that the government's real function was the national defense and that the states should care for the well being of the their respective citizenry. Obamacare perverts the idea that the federal government should do what it is good at and leave everything else to the people.

I do not advocate anything other than watching the results of what happens when somebody wants to create history, does a piss poor job of it, and then throws it over the wall and blames everybody else.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299636 - 03/16/17 02:23 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
The contradictions in Republican arguments, including our friend, Ma, are legion, but at least MA R is honest about not wanting us to help our neighbors, so kudos for that.

The fundamental problem, that really gets under the skin of ideological conservatives, is that virtually every social program Democrats and progressives have introduced over the last century has been wildly successful and wildly popular. They like to pretend these programs are failing, claim they are unpopular, and lament their "burdens" - but it's all a con game. The ACA already changed the landscape, but most Republicans can't admit they lost. People want coverage, now we're just discussing how to make it happen.

And the canard about government not being able to run anything is belied every day. The only people who can't run government are Republicans. It's ironic that people give them any credit for national security or economic expertise, since they are particularly bad at both. (I'll give you Harding, Hoover, Coolidge, Reagan, Bush and Bush as examples - every one presided over a recession induced by their policies. Republican Presidents and Recessions: A Pattern Trump Would Like to Break - Bloomberg.)
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299637 - 03/16/17 02:34 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 159
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

The GOP now has a chance to rip it out by the root and their politictal sharia ideology commands them to obey.
Tell me Ma, where in the constitution does it say the federal government must defer to free markets and political campaign money rather than it's enumerated duties outlined in the constitution?
By the way, how do you square the presidents campaign promises to make healthcare coverage for everyone, (we godda do this, folks") to your own 'free market' ideology that was crushing larger portions of the citizenry with it's faster rising premiums than it has been under ACA?



There is nothing in the Constitution that precludes the government from becoming a Health Insurer, however history tells us that they are unable to balance their checkbooks, what would make us think that they could manage national health insurance? It would be a bigger disaster than what Obamacare is today.



What about Medicare and Medicaid? The government has been running them for decades and Republicans keep trying to force them into insolvency through budget cuts and other cut backs. So what about Medicare and Medicaid?
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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#299638 - 03/16/17 02:39 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jim D (FreeThinker) Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 3226
Loc: Aurora Ohio
Here is what I always find interesting. Everyone that is against a Govn't program will all of sudden be in favor of it when they get benefits from it. Yes even conservatives. Witness the hand wringing in the red states now that they realize that all of a sudden they may no longer be able to afford health care insurance.

So, when conservatives are in their later years and develop cancer or Alzheimer's I expect that they will expect the government to help subsidize the hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses so that they do not go bankrupt, even if they can afford it.
_________________________
Jim

If you're incompetent, you can't know you're incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.

--David Dunning

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#299639 - 03/16/17 02:41 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: logtroll]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: logtroll
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Health is a wise and desired thing, but it should not be a national entitlement. It should be run by the individual states, and maybe partially underwritten by the Fed. That is as far as I would be willing to fund. I mean, hell, planned parenthood is being funded by the fed, I suppose that some kind of men's health network could be funded also.

You are all over the map, Ma.

Why shouldn't basic health care be a part of the national general welfare?


It is not something that the federal government can do well enough to service the public. It will result in wasted billions of dollars and exploding insurance costs. I don't have a solution and even if I did I know myself well enough to know it would be just as bad as what the last guy did. Sometimes, the solution isn't socialism, or social justice, or even fairness. Sometimes you have to bite the lemon and accept the sour taste. Right now we have an opportunity to take away the sour taste of insurance premiums exploding through the roof. We a shot at actually have a do over. Maybe that do over results in doing nothing, maybe it results in solving the problem. The obvious problem, the 600 ton elephant in the room is that Obamacare is doomed.

Take the do over, live to fight another day, because when Obamacare goes belly up and it becomes a political hot potato, it will never be resurrected. It will go down as an object lesson of what happens when social engineering goes bad. If you want even a chance at saving something of what Obama lied about, it is time to make nice with the House Republicans who support the current bill. I say this because I know you will never do it and we will all watch as reporters tearfully deride the Republican Congress because they couldn't do anything to fix Obama's folly. It may, with any luck, be used as an object lesson of why not to trust Congress with your wealth and wellbeing.

I have been consistent since the first debate, you cannot add 10% of the population into an insurance system and think it will be OK. I remember people arguing that Obamacare would save people money, that it would decrease costs. Of course, those very people are arguing that Republicans should forgive and forget how badly Obamacare screwed the other 90% of the population, how we should be honored to be supporting the 10% who were being taken care of under the previous system.

Remember, it will cost you less and give you more? If you want to keep your existing plan you will be able to! You can keep your existing doctor also. Remember the bald faced lies? It wasn't aimed at the Republicans, it was aimed at the leftist liberals who would believe anything that Obama said because that way they wouldn't have think rational thoughts.

Let it die, and it will die with a whimper not a growl, the see if you can make a deal. That is call Playing Politics. That would be congress protecting 90% of the population from the largess that Congress has with other peoples money.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299641 - 03/16/17 02:48 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Jim D (FreeThinker)
Here is what I always find interesting. Everyone that is against a Govn't program will all of sudden be in favor of it when they get benefits from it. Yes even conservatives. Witness the hand wringing in the red states now that they realize that all of a sudden they may no longer be able to afford health care insurance.

So, when conservatives are in their later years and develop cancer or Alzheimer's I expect that they will expect the government to help subsidize the hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses so that they do not go bankrupt, even if they can afford it.


Momma raised ugly children, not stupid children. If somebody is giving away money, I will stand in line for it. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, that makes me smarter than the people giving the money away. If it is free, it is for me. My tax money is paying for it, may as well use it. The difference is I won't cry if and when the bad things happen. I won't blame somebody else because I have problems. Unlike a liberal, I never look to blame my problems on somebody else. Just as it always all about me and mine, my problems are my own.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299642 - 03/16/17 02:53 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
Jim D (FreeThinker) Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 3226
Loc: Aurora Ohio
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: Jim D (FreeThinker)
Here is what I always find interesting. Everyone that is against a Govn't program will all of sudden be in favor of it when they get benefits from it. Yes even conservatives. Witness the hand wringing in the red states now that they realize that all of a sudden they may no longer be able to afford health care insurance.

So, when conservatives are in their later years and develop cancer or Alzheimer's I expect that they will expect the government to help subsidize the hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses so that they do not go bankrupt, even if they can afford it.


Momma raised ugly children, not stupid children. If somebody is giving away money, I will stand in line for it. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, that makes me smarter than the people giving the money away. If it is free, it is for me. My tax money is paying for it, may as well use it. The difference is I won't cry if and when the bad things happen. I won't blame somebody else because I have problems. Unlike a liberal, I never look to blame my problems on somebody else. Just as it always all about me and mine, my problems are my own.


I can not address your appearance but I can address your misinterpretation of what I wrote. If you read more carefully I stated that there would be the EXPECTATION of the gov't to be there when needed.
_________________________
Jim

If you're incompetent, you can't know you're incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.

--David Dunning

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#299643 - 03/16/17 03:08 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 596
You selling but I'm not buying.
The upper middle and upper income class ALWAYS receive the majority of government largess. At least you are honest about it, though, so credit where credit is due.
Again, your OPINION is no answer to the question asked. If the constitution requires the elected bodies to carry out their constitutionally enumerated duties for the protection and general welfare of the nation then why does the republican Sharia philosophy think, on the one hand the federal government is the better administrator of the military rather than the states maintaining militia's, on the other howl at the moon should there be any effort by the elected bodies to administer on behalf of the public health?
We have been warned by our founding fathers about standing armies and foreign entanglements yet here we are. S'all good with GOP though.
Promote domestic healthcare lissen to the howls.....



Edited by chunkstyle (03/16/17 03:10 PM)

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#299645 - 03/16/17 03:22 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: chunkstyle]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
You selling but I'm not buying.
The upper middle and upper income class ALWAYS receive the majority of government largess. At least you are honest about it, though, so credit where credit is due.
Again, your OPINION is no answer to the question asked. If the constitution requires the elected bodies to carry out their constitutionally enumerated duties for the protection and general welfare of the nation then why does the republican Sharia philosophy think, on the one hand the federal government is the better administrator of the military rather than the states maintaining militia's, on the other howl at the moon should there be any effort by the elected bodies to administer on behalf of the public health?
We have been warned by our founding fathers about standing armies and foreign entanglements yet here we are. S'all good with GOP though.
Promote domestic healthcare lissen to the howls.....



The military fits comfortably into the traditional definition of health and welfare. Their motivated by a set of rules and follow those rules without exception. Congress is not an asset to the health and welfare very often, they follow no rules and cannot even agree on how to balance the budget.

Congress does not engender trust, and does not deserve our trust.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299646 - 03/16/17 03:24 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ujest Shurly]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Ujest Shurly
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

The GOP now has a chance to rip it out by the root and their politictal sharia ideology commands them to obey.
Tell me Ma, where in the constitution does it say the federal government must defer to free markets and political campaign money rather than it's enumerated duties outlined in the constitution?
By the way, how do you square the presidents campaign promises to make healthcare coverage for everyone, (we godda do this, folks") to your own 'free market' ideology that was crushing larger portions of the citizenry with it's faster rising premiums than it has been under ACA?



There is nothing in the Constitution that precludes the government from becoming a Health Insurer, however history tells us that they are unable to balance their checkbooks, what would make us think that they could manage national health insurance? It would be a bigger disaster than what Obamacare is today.



What about Medicare and Medicaid? The government has been running them for decades and Republicans keep trying to force them into insolvency through budget cuts and other cut backs. So what about Medicare and Medicaid?


Cool, keep medicare and Medicaid. See, we can agree on healthcare. If we don't take care of the elderly, we fail as a society.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299647 - 03/16/17 06:08 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Cool, keep medicare and Medicaid


And, of course, the federally-run massive socialized medical care systems of the military and the VA. The federal government can't possibly set some rules about what private insurance companies can and can't do, but they can run military health care (including retirees and their spouses and dependents) and the VA system.

ROTFMOL

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#299652 - 03/16/17 10:31 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Congress does not engender trust, and does not deserve our trust.


So I guess you were perfectly fine with RomneyCare: The Massachusetts health insurance plan ACA was based on. (The main difference was that the RomneyCare mandate penalty was much higher than ACA's.) That was run entirely by the state for the people of that state.

Just like each other state's version of ACA. I think there is a little hole in your logic here!

I also think you don't have any problem with ACA redefining insurance to cover preexisting conditions, having no exclusions, no yearly or lifetime cap, etc. I bet your main objection is that the federal government gives poor people subsidies. Which means poor people should just die. Which won't really happen because they will just use very expensive ER visits to get health care and all the hospitals will have to eat it and go bankrupt, or charge everybody with insurance enough to make up for it.

This says a lot more about you and your sense of right and wrong than it does about the ACA. Poor people end up with health care either way, but as long as they don't have insurance it is better even if we all end up paying more.

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#299664 - 03/17/17 09:07 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


For those in denial, ACA is the Heritage Foundation's Healthy Equality Access Reform Today (Act of 1993)
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299665 - 03/17/17 09:13 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6427
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Quote:
Congress does not engender trust, and does not deserve our trust.


So I guess you were perfectly fine with RomneyCare: The Massachusetts health insurance plan ACA was based on. (The main difference was that the RomneyCare mandate penalty was much higher than ACA's.) That was run entirely by the state for the people of that state.

Just like each other state's version of ACA. I think there is a little hole in your logic here!

I also think you don't have any problem with ACA redefining insurance to cover preexisting conditions, having no exclusions, no yearly or lifetime cap, etc. I bet your main objection is that the federal government gives poor people subsidies. Which means poor people should just die. Which won't really happen because they will just use very expensive ER visits to get health care and all the hospitals will have to eat it and go bankrupt, or charge everybody with insurance enough to make up for it.

This says a lot more about you and your sense of right and wrong than it does about the ACA. Poor people end up with health care either way, but as long as they don't have insurance it is better even if we all end up paying more.


I want people to be happy, healthy and safe. I do not trust the government, and I believe that they are the absolute worst institution possible to be managing anything other than a checking account.

I was against Romneycare when the SJC insisted that Mitt create it. I have, however, had to use it for coverage. If not for Obamacare, I wouldn't have used Romnetcare either. Look, everybody should be able to afford medical care. The cost has spiraled out of control and Congress has done nothing to lessen the costs for working America. Why should people who do the right thing get punished? Why should working Americans have to pay outrageous amounts of money each month for coverage that most do not use? They have to do it because Obama embraced his socialist soul and decided that we really are responsible for our neighbors.

I follow the rules, I pay my taxes and because I actually work, I get screwed. Sorry, if that attitude makes me a grumpy Republican, then I embrace the grumpiness. I want to take care of what is mine first, then if there is anything left over maybe I can give it to charity. That concept, the one where you are responsible for your own situation, has become passé, and America is less for it.
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#299666 - 03/17/17 10:43 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
Here's the problem with your logic, Ma. Taking care of others is taking care of you and yours. The truth is, the cost of your healthcare is directly affected by not taking care of those "others." The ACA (and Romney care before it) helped slow the rise of healthcare/insurance costs for everyone, including you. The truth is, we are all in this together.

Why was there an ACA? Because the cost of health care throughout the United States was rising nearly exponentially, and a major reason is because so many people did not have insurance, were not getting preventive care, and our health provision services were/are being overwhelmed. It is a national crisis. Frankly, that's why we have a United States, to deal with issues that are of national scope. Individual States cannot handle it on their own. (Large States, like Massachusetts, can, but that leaves out more than half the US, and nearly all Republicans.) And this crisis is not over.

I believe there are better solutions than the ACA, but it was a good start, and helped identify why, where and how the problems can be addressed. I agree that Congress is an unwieldy body, but it is the system we have. It can get big things done when properly led - social security, national security, the interstate highway system, NASA - are all demonstrations of that. The problem is patently obvious, though. The Republican party is not the solution to the problem, it is the problem. It stands in the way of every rational solution to nearly every national problem.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299670 - 03/17/17 04:15 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
Spag-hetti Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Middle, USA
Holy cow! I just looked at a list of countries with universal health care on Wikipedia. There's a crap load of them. Rich/poor, 1st world/3rd world, north/east/south/west ... everywhere.

Wonder why those countries do that. They couldn't all be tree-hugging liberals. Could it be that it is the cheapest way to do it? I'm pretty sure those countries considered cost before they set up the system.

What stands between the US and universal health? Could it be all the money big pharma gives in political donations? Could it be the money insurance companies donate? There's literally no reason to give money to people to give to the insurance companies so they can make their profits instead of just giving people health care.

"Socialized medicine" is a term that is so vile to so many people. They fear it, hate it, but don't take away their Medicare or their Medicaid. The government just better keep its hands off those programs.

I swear, a lot of Americans are their own worst enemies. Their votes make it hard on the rational, sane Americans.
_________________________
Just a Missouri school teacher ... stubborn as a mule and addicted to logic.

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#299673 - 03/17/17 05:58 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
I was against ... Obama embraced his socialist soul and decided that we really are responsible for our neighbors.

The best I can do with that is ... you do not comprehend the concept of insurance or you are emotionally angry that other people are getting the benefits of insurance. In either case you offer nothing.

This is different than the ideological rejection the federal government should not be engaged in health care.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299674 - 03/17/17 06:00 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
The Republican party is not the solution to the problem, it is the problem

There is no compromising ideological differences.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299679 - 03/17/17 07:47 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Why should working Americans have to pay outrageous amounts of money each month for coverage that most do not use? They have to do it because Obama embraced his socialist soul and decided that we really are responsible for our neighbors.


It has NOT A THING to do with Obama's "socialism" (which does not exist) and everything to do with how insurance works. You pay your premiums and they help pay your medical bills. Some of the pool are sick now, some are not. Those who are not sick now, will very likely be sick in the future.

The "outrageous amounts of money" you pay is actually less than you would be paying without ACA because hospitals charge their insured patients to cover the cost of the uninsured. The more uninsured, the more you pay.

And it is all based on the fantasy of "self insurance", that is paying your own family's medical bills as you consume medical services. Only problem is that hospitals charge cash customers up to 10 times what they charge insured customers for the very same thing. Even if you have a very high deductible policy that you never collect anything from, you still get the negotiated prices. That can save you thousands of dollars per year.

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#299713 - 03/18/17 01:12 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
I say $695 is a paltry sum to pay for the freedom to be uninsured. Go for it, Ma! Be free!
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299721 - 03/18/17 05:24 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Unfortunately, even when you think you have paid your $695 to be free, those darned paramedics will take you to the ER after your heart attack. While you are unconscious, the doctors will do an angioplasty and install a stent so you live another 20 years. Then you get the $200,000 bill and lose your house.

Ha, ha! You're screwed!

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#299722 - 03/18/17 05:28 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
I just realized I must be some crazy hippy, arguing in favor of something as insane as "health insurance". Jeez, what next? Social Security?

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#299723 - 03/18/17 06:01 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21124
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I just realized I must be some crazy hippy, arguing in favor of something as insane as "health insurance". Jeez, what next? Social Security?
Me too


Edited by Phil Hoskins (03/18/17 06:07 PM)
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#299724 - 03/18/17 06:35 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Phil Hoskins]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12437
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Phil Hoskins
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
I just realized I must be some crazy hippy, arguing in favor of something as insane as "health insurance". Jeez, what next? Social Security?
Me too


Me three.
Uhhhh PIA, "hippy" is a term used by Sergeant Joe Friday, or it refers to women with a lot of extra junk in the trunk.
Were you talking about a "hippie"?

_________________________
"Liberty is so important to "libertarians" that they think actually getting to exercise liberty should be a privilege that is overwhelmingly rationed in favor of the rich.
Recognizing this ought to tell us what we are dealing with."
---Piers Stephens

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#299725 - 03/18/17 06:44 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ma_Republican]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12437
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
Poor people end up with health care either way, but as long as they don't have insurance it is better even if we all end up paying more. Why should working Americans have to pay outrageous amounts of money each month for coverage that most do not use?


Ma, I refer you to Bill Cassidy, a Republican senator from Lousiana:

Three ObamaCare replace myths

Quote:
"Everyone reading this knows someone or was personally diagnosed with diabetes. A doctor can treat diabetes so that the impact to health is marginal. But someone making $16,000 a year who, does not qualify for Medicaid, cannot afford the employee’s share of employer provided insurance and cannot pay cash for doctor visits or their medicines is not treated. Their blood sugar is always too high and they regularly go to the ER when their blood sugar becomes drastically uncontrolled. Each hospitalization costs society tens of thousands of dollars."
_________________________
"Liberty is so important to "libertarians" that they think actually getting to exercise liberty should be a privilege that is overwhelmingly rationed in favor of the rich.
Recognizing this ought to tell us what we are dealing with."
---Piers Stephens

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#299732 - 03/18/17 08:33 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Poor people walking around with untreated TB is an even better example. Treat them for a few hundred a year or treat the dozens of people they pass it on to. Maybe they even give it to YOU or a family member. All it takes is walking down the street near them when they cough.

There is a whole bunch of contagious diseases we should vaccinate everybody we can as a public health effort. Likewise, there are a whole bunch of preventive things we should do on everybody (like breast cancer screening and colon cancer checks) because when you wait until they are advanced, treatment can be very costly and less successful.

Purely from an economic viewpoint, if you are not going to let people die untreated you might as well go with the care delivery system that is cheapest. Republican health care plans all ignore this simple bottom line for ideological reasons. Republican Health Care is too expensive!

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#299735 - 03/18/17 08:54 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Phil Hoskins Offline
Administrator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 21124
Loc: West Hollywood, CA
Anyone too stingy to share the load of the cost of insurance is shortsighted, and deserves to contract an illness they cannot afford to treat.

But then the GOP plan is to bankrupt the nation so we are all too poor to treat disease. It is a plan to reduce the population drastically and painfully.
_________________________
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul

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#299738 - 03/18/17 09:13 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I say $695 is a paltry sum to pay for the freedom to be uninsured. Go for it, Ma! Be free!

Ironic that Trumpcare places a penalty for not buying insurance. laugh
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#299743 - 03/19/17 01:45 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
I think you might be able to wait until you get sick, then pay the one-time 30% more for the rest of the year to be enrolled. This could be perfect for a con game if you got sick on December 1st. You only have to pay for 1 month's insurance plus 30% more, and only a penalty for that year.

I have a feeling Republicans have not run this by the insurance companies. If these are the terms, nobody will offer health insurance.

The other way they could do it, is you can't enroll until January 1st of the next year, if you miss the couple of month grace period without enrollment. Then you would have to pay 30% more, but most people who got sick would be bankrupt by then.

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#299762 - 03/19/17 04:25 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pdx rick]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2121
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I say $695 is a paltry sum to pay for the freedom to be uninsured. Go for it, Ma! Be free!

Ironic that Trumpcare places a penalty for not buying insurance. laugh

And that penalty payment goes directly to the insurance company.

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#299803 - 03/20/17 10:32 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Republicans really trashed all the good ideas in RomneyCare/ACA. Now they need to come up with things that work, but they are hard pressed to find ones that are different. Obviously, charging a 60 year old single woman who makes $20000 per year $14000 for her health insurance is a boneheaded flub. If you want subsidies/tax credits that help, they have to be income-based not age based. But there's a name for such a plan: ObamaCare

If they want to keep people buying insurance, maybe they should go back to the much larger fine for non-enrollment that was in RomneyCare. It was as high as 50% of the cost of the cheapest policy. They got up to 98.1% of the people in the state covered!

They did run into the time-gaming problem: People would buy insurance just when they needed care and then drop out when they got well. At one point, over 1000 people did this. For $1200 - $1600 they would get $10,000 worth of care. So exactly how to stop this requires some careful thought.

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#299811 - 03/20/17 04:05 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

The GOP doesn't have the votes - so ACA lives on for at least right now...

Congress is going on vaca in April and with the summer coming up - the Trump voter knuckle-draggers will forget about ACA replacement because they'll be distracted by some shiny newer object.
_________________________
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#299813 - 03/20/17 04:23 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
I used to be optimistic that "it couldn't happen", and then Trump did. So, I will not be sanguine until the effort is dead, dead, extinguished three times, and cold to the touch. Then the work of repairing the damage can begin.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299819 - 03/20/17 07:22 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
From a friend, via the Oregonian:
Quote:
If the current health care is commonly known as Obama-Care, then the proposed GOP version provided by Donald Trump, should be referred to as: DonaldTrump-Care or “Don’Tcare”, for short.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299821 - 03/20/17 07:42 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
the Trump voter knuckle-draggers will forget about ACA replacement because they'll be distracted by some shiny newer object.

I don;t think it entirely or categorically true or valid.

With new information on [RyanCare, TrumpCare, TrumpDontCare, or your fav] citizens are learning the fine points. There will be a hard core for whom ACA must be repealed. However there is a group increasing in number who now suspect ACA may be better than characterized by conservative leaders.

Bottom line, even though I think there may be some movement within the ranks, it will still be top shelf on their agenda i.e. tax break for the wealthy, get government out of entitlements, etc.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299822 - 03/20/17 07:45 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: rporter314
Quote:
the Trump voter knuckle-draggers will forget about ACA replacement because they'll be distracted by some shiny newer object.

I don;t think it entirely or categorically true or valid.

With new information on [RyanCare, TrumpCare, TrumpDontCare, or your fav] citizens are learning the fine points. There will be a hard core for whom ACA must be repealed. However there is a group increasing in number who now suspect ACA may be better than characterized by conservative leaders.

Bottom line, even though I think there may be some movement within the ranks, it will still be top shelf on their agenda i.e. tax break for the wealthy, get government out of entitlements, etc.

The only reason to rewrite ACA is to give the top 1% a tax break. ACA is pretty good - after all, it was the Heritage Foundation's idea in 1993.

ACA needs some tweaking, yes.
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#299823 - 03/20/17 08:34 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pdx rick]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3680
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
ACA needs some tweaking, yes.

Indeed it does, and Obama wished/hoped for that to happen after it became law. It was viewed as a work in progress that could and should be improved upon to make it more efficient.

The far right Repubs want none of that and only desire its full repeal and to then go back to the “good old days” of 2008 and prior. Some tea party guy (forget his name) stated that very position verb ate ‘em when I saw him interviewed a few weeks ago on the telebitchin.....
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#299825 - 03/20/17 10:11 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pdx rick]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Not the only reason, but certainly a good one for conservatives.

Fundamentally conservatives reject the notion the federal government should be involved in anything other than military defense. It is an idiot-ological position which is more than just difficult to convey or sell to the "base", who for the most part are simply ignorant of and lack the understanding of the abstraction.

Thus the arguments revolved around the non-existent "death panels", etc. The current arguments are all single word criticisms (collapse, death spiral, etc) which have mass appeal for people who do not want to or are incapable of looking beneath the hood.

What these conservatives are trying to sell to their base is, if you have a job and are getting insurance then your premiums will go down. And if you are wealthy your taxes will go down. It is a self centered plan which appeals to conservatives in general.

From an idiot-ological perspective, they will remove the federal government as much as is possible, which will appeal to the wonks. These guys could care less if poor folks get covered i.e. poor people should have been born "rich".

This is one of the Big Four, repeal (but not necessarily replace) ACA, the Great Wall of Trump, and tax reform (including deregulation), and the Muslim Ban. These are not going away, even if there are roadblocks.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299826 - 03/20/17 10:18 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Ken Condon]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
The most sensible, reasonable fix is some variation of single-payer. I can see this as either government or privately run.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#299827 - 03/20/17 11:24 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Sure, most of the elderly will tell you they are conservative (mostly because they are just old and liked the way things were when they were young). BUT don't touch their Medicare or Social Security! It's a logical disconnect, but hey they are old and not so hot on logic anymore.

If we look at it from the 50,000 foot view, healthcare is simple. We have some doctors, some drug companies and medical device manufacturers, a big pool of citizens and legal residents, and some money. We should just be able to rise above it all and figure out the plan that covers just about everything for everybody. Other countries manage to do that with a lot less money per capita than we have.

As it was in 2008 and is now, we're just pushing the deck chairs around on the Titanic: Pushing costs this way and that to try to come up with something "fair". Truth is that we the insured pay for just about everything for everybody, one way or another. It may be in the form of taxes, may be in the form of higher premiums, or it may be in the forms of deductible copays.

There are people who can't pay, because they are poor. We collectively choose to pay for them because that's just who we are as a people. Then there are moochers who could pay but don't. We even pay for them through higher premiums and government grants to hospitals.

So why not just make Medicare for all mandatory, help the truly poor with their payments, and get rid of the moocher class. It's got to be a lot cheaper and the only losers I can see are the moochers who would be moochers no more.

The very same insurance companies who handle regular claims, also handle Medicare claims for the government now. The difference is they do it for 5% instead of 20%. They could easily convert their regular policy claims processing to Medicare. The infrastructure already exists!

You don't have to charge everybody $120 per month like current Medicare recipients. They are charged that because they have spent a lifetime paying in. Charge everybody on a sliding scale, depending on their income and age. As long as we collect enough to keep it solvent.

And get rid of that law that says the government can't negotiate drug prices for Medicare! Talk about corporate welfare. In fact, change the patent law so a patent is invalid if a company charges more that 1000% of their manufacturing cost. (Because that kind of extortion violates the whole purpose of patents, that we all can benefit from new inventions.)

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#299829 - 03/21/17 12:00 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3680
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
The most sensible, reasonable fix is some variation of single-payer

Remember--this is Humurrica. That method of supplying access to health care is simply un-Humurrican, makes too much sense, and---it’s--- simply un-Humurrican to boot!
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#299849 - 03/21/17 07:36 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Trump went to Congress to try to get all the Republicans behind the AHCA bill. The Freedom Caucus said no. Trump told them they could get "primaried" in 2018.

That would be interesting. A contest between a conservative Freedom Caucus member and what? Somebody more liberal? In that case, wouldn't the Democrat win the general election?

This an interesting three-position contest:

1. Keep ACA
2. Replace ACA with crappy AHCA
3. Repeal ACA and have nothing

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#299852 - 03/21/17 07:59 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
TatumAH Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 336
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Trump went to Congress to try to get all the Republicans behind the AHCA bill. The Freedom Caucus said no. Trump told them they could get "primaried" in 2018.

That would be interesting. A contest between a conservative Freedom Caucus member and what? Somebody more liberal? In that case, wouldn't the Democrat win the general election?

This an interesting three-position contest:

1. Keep ACA
2. Replace ACA with crappy AHCA
3. Repeal ACA and have nothing



I just read the same thing. The GOP House are unhappy campers. Damned if they do( by voters in 2018) or damned if they don't ( by threatened attacks by T-rump)! Luckily for them, he doesn't hold grudges for Reps that further emasculate an already eunuchoid Presidensey. Dont you just feel sorry for them? Can't you feel their pain?
Tat ROTFMOL
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Except that it's lonesome work
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#299865 - 03/22/17 06:17 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I am so hopeful that the GOP fails to pass AHCA in House. That would give me hope that maybe we can stave off disaster. If it fails, maybe a coalition of moderates can do the right thing and work on real reform.
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#299867 - 03/22/17 06:41 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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The Republican Party falls apart here: There are three coalitions in Congress right now, the straight repealers, the replacers, and the Democrats. Even if "Republicans" are in control, neither of their factions have enough votes to prevail.

Repealers are afraid if they don't deliver on their many years of promises, they will lose office in 2018. Replacers know that if they throw 20 million people off health insurance they will lose office in 2018. And you know what? They are both probably right!

Republicans have painted themselves into a corner. I think the only way out for them is to adopt RomneyCare exactly as written for all 50 states and our territories. Then everybody gets coverage and it was invented by a Republican.

But they are probably too stupid to go for it, so they will lose Congress in 2018 for failing to deliver,

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#299870 - 03/22/17 01:25 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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I think conservatives and probably a lot of Republicans would rather auto-asphyxiate than pass anything which appears similar to ACA.

For those who are strictly repeal there is no problem .... let the people eat cake (or more simply frak those people).

The Republican/conservatives are actually forced to address the replacement issue only because of the popularity and understanding of what ACA is. Had ACA actually been the catastrophic failure conservatives claim it is, no one would care about pre-existing, lifetime caps, etc. and they would simply repeal.

Now, faced with constraints which do not lend easily to low cost, no government intervention, etc, Republicans have no realistic plan.

Would they rather pass a terrible bill than not pass anything at all? I think so. Remember the House has cover in the Senate. If Democrats hold fast in the face of a terrible bill, it will not pass.

Republicans have, unintentionally for the benefit of Democrats, performed well for the Le Théâtre du Grand-Guignol. I think it will pass the House but will never reach the Resolute.
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#299871 - 03/22/17 03:02 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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It used to be the "un-American activities committee" was anti-communist witch hunting. Now it is just conducting Congressional business...
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#299873 - 03/22/17 04:45 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I think the "simplest" solution is a medicare-for-all opt-in. You can go employer, exchange, OR government-payer. In 5 years, everyone will be in.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299875 - 03/22/17 05:42 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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I am partial to a single pool, single payer solution.
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#299877 - 03/22/17 06:33 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

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Quote:
they will lose Congress in 2018 for failing to deliver


No, they won't. Too few Republican seats seats up for grabs in the Senate, and unfortunately Republicans will re-elect most of the House members. But I suspect that by 2020 Americans will have had enough of Donald Trump and his bumbling congress.
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#299889 - 03/23/17 03:57 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Really, the Republicans are at war with their constituents. They look like they're losing.

Big numbers: the CBO estimates that the AHCA would reduce the deficit by $337 billion. How? By cutting nearly a trillion dollars from Medicaid.

But wait!? If they cut a trillion dollars from Medicaid, why does it reduce the deficit only $337 billion? Because they give $600+ billion back to the top tax brackets. The AHCA’s Tradeoff: Giving Up Vital Care to Get Tax Cuts for the Rich - Atlantic
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299896 - 03/23/17 06:36 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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That's the whole raison d'etre of the Republican Party: If we could just make rich people a little bit richer...

I swear, every single thing they do always comes down to that. I think it's in their DNA.

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#299908 - 03/23/17 07:33 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

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So, in an effort to make everyone's lives better, they gave lots of money to the very rich.

It didn't work.

The solution then is to give even more money to the rich.
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#299910 - 03/23/17 07:43 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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House AHCA vote postponed...
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299913 - 03/23/17 08:06 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
TatumAH Offline
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Registered: 02/18/11
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Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
House AHCA vote postponed...


Jeez, I hate it when the house does something that is NOT insane! Still there is some vicarious glee imagining a steaming bowl of Agent Orange. I wouldnt want to be the one who tells him! Expect some interesting tweets. Is he tired of winning yet? grin

Maybe in a narcissistic rage he will lash out and publicly distract us by declaring himself as a treasonous Putin groin ferret!
[video:google]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cr2kjxkWIAAIhzR.jpg[/video]
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cr2kjxkWIAAIhzR.jpg

Tat


Edited by TatumAH (03/23/17 08:14 PM)
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#299914 - 03/23/17 08:07 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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the stars were not properly aligned ... i see a little more jaw boning in the very near future

what i don;t understand is how the president continues to support a bill which is not even remotely close to the rhetoric he used ... an increased pool of uninsured by 24M people losing coverage ... maybe that means universal coverage in Trumpland
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#299915 - 03/23/17 08:15 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
TatumAH Offline
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Logical consistency?? Ha!
Tat
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#299917 - 03/23/17 08:29 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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This is a hopeful sign, but no time for complacency. It looked like 30-40 Republican members were against the bill. There are 50 members in the Tuesday Group of "Moderate" Republicans. If the 193 Democrats found common ground with them, maybe something positive could happen.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299918 - 03/23/17 09:07 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
TatumAH Offline
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Some may be celebrating a Happy Obamacare Anniversary Day! But in the White House...

Pesky Kenyans grin
Tat
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#299919 - 03/23/17 10:43 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
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Quote:
There are 50 members in the Tuesday Group of "Moderate" Republicans. If the 193 Democrats found common ground with them, maybe something positive could happen.

In a world where the American people were the prime concern of elected officials, maybe. In this real hyper-partisan world where every Republican/conservative voted to repeal, not so much.

This is idiot-ological for Republicans/conservatives. If they didn't have to deal with replace, they would have repealed ACA on day 1.
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#299921 - 03/24/17 12:00 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

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Word is they're going to vote on it tomorrow.

Maybe they've got enough votes to push it through now.
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#299924 - 03/24/17 01:30 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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Rep Meadows said it best .... he was working hard to get to "yes".

This is highly stylized Washingtonian theater. Back and forth ... melodrama ... the President issues an ultimatum ... on the edge of your seat ... to be continued tomorrow

Even if it passes the House (and I suspect it will), I do not know what anyone could possibly offer 8 Democrats in the Senate to vote for a bill which probably never makes it out of conference. I suspect they can not get all 52 Republicans in Senate to vote for anything which looks like the House bill.

Essentially these folks are saying they are out of the health care business. They will continue to cripple ACA until it dies an unpleasant death due to financial and legislative malnutrition.
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#299937 - 03/24/17 05:58 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
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Trump's first legislative action is going down in flames. MAGA - Morons Are Governing Again
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#299943 - 03/24/17 07:33 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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In language that Trump understands, people are saying nyet.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299944 - 03/24/17 07:51 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299945 - 03/24/17 08:02 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
TatumAH Offline
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Loc: Upstate NY
My hat is off to Nancy Pelosi who convinced the FreeDumb Cockus to vote as she directed. Strange bedfellows indeed!

Tat
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#299946 - 03/24/17 08:32 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Registered: 10/16/16
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Loc: Michigan, USA
I think it was more that constituents were calling and saying NO! I tried to call my representative, many times, and the lines to DC were clogged. Kept getting that unable to connect your call at this time message.

However, just because it was stopped this time does not mean it is dead for the Republicans. Ever vigilant, ever ready.
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#299947 - 03/24/17 08:34 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299948 - 03/24/17 09:09 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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I was wrong ... these guys are really intractable

With the self imposed constraints these guys want, I would say they can never find a solution.

The one ray of light would be if Democrats offered some fixes, but I do not believe any Republican/conservative would ever vote with a Democrat fix.

It would appear Republicans would rather allow ACA to fail and take down everything it tried to accomplish.

Maybe they will reconsider and do a repeal only bill, which everyone should support, with a proviso written on toilet paper of a future replacement plan.

The only thing certain is they had 6 full years to devise a replacement plan or a fix and failed miserably.
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#299950 - 03/24/17 10:23 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
matthew Offline
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Originally Posted By: rporter314
The only thing certain is they had 6 full years to devise a replacement plan or a fix and failed miserably.

Conservatives like to move slowly ... rolleyes
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#299953 - 03/25/17 12:34 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: matthew]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: rporter314
The only thing certain is they had 6 full years to devise a replacement plan or a fix and failed miserably.

Trumpcare was nothing more than a tax refund for the rich Volume I disguised as "healthcare" bill. Shameful.

Trump's press conference was either a knowing lie, or complete delusion. He blamed The Dems for the failure of not having enough votes - ignoring the reality that if all the GOP voted, the bill would have passed.
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#299954 - 03/25/17 01:03 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Democrats passed ACA with zero Republican votes. Republicans have the majority now and they can't pass their own bill. (Democrats affected zero Republican votes, as everybody but Trump would expect.)

There are at least two Republican Party coalitions in complete opposition. One cares about getting reelected, and the other doesn't. I guess The Freedom Caucus believes their own propaganda.

Never a wise move in politics.

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#299968 - 03/25/17 06:24 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
Irked Offline
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Can't just repeal huge chunks of Obamacare unless one either disposes of the Byrd Rule and / or the filibuster.

Not even McConnell is that sick.
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#299976 - 03/25/17 07:19 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pdx rick Offline
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For seven years - Repeal and Replace - that's all the GOP ever thought about, ever voted about.

It's like the GOP perusing a hot women for seven years, and she finally says the GOP can take her to bed, and once the GOP gets her there - "Mr Happy" doesn't rise to the occasion.
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#299982 - 03/25/17 09:27 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#299986 - 03/25/17 11:19 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
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I think there was a discussion in this forum of the future of the Republican Party. The administration claimed the HFC kept moving the goalpost in their pursuit of concessions. That can not be farther from than truth. The reality is they are all idiot-ologues for whom compromise is not in their dictionary. They were simply going through the list of idiot-ological demands.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out it takes a bipartisan approach to move forward.

The problem with health care reform is the framework WAS a compromise. The constraints are difficult from ideological perspectives. Republicans could not go with a 1-payer and Democrats could not go with an unregulated free market. So a hybrid exists which is unmanageable.

I think these folks should agree before any plan is offered to accept the best plan (whatever criteria they determine) developed. Thus we should see a 1-payer plan sent to CBO and a free market plan as starters. Refine the plans and the one which satisfies a pre-determined equation with minimization of cost and maximization of coverage is the package. Simply looking for the maximum number of people who would accept a reasonable solution.

While it is true in the mid 90's Cato proposed a mandated plan, Republicans have moved to the right which results in idiot-ological parameters which precludes any chance of bipartisan compromise.
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#299991 - 03/26/17 02:24 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
accept the best plan


Why not have a single-payer plan and private plans from any insurer who wants to participate. You still have the 10 essentials to make the quality consistent, and bronze, silver, gold, and platinum levels of copays and deductibles. No reason why a single-payer couldn't offer those four levels too.

Then let consumers decide which one they want. The single payer would be 15% cheaper just because of the overhead, but some people might decide they want XYZ brand and pay more. (I predict that no insurance company would choose to compete after the first year.)

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#300029 - 03/26/17 10:10 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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There is a spectrum from Socialist to Freedom Caucus on healthcare. Their positions are all the way from single-payer for all to no government payment and not even any regulation of insurance companies. But no single group has the votes to change anything.

We have explored a coalition between normal Republicans and The Freedom Caucus: Doesn't work because they are diametrically opposed. But what about a coalition between Democrats and a few Moderate Republicans from Blue states? Are there enough votes there to lower the ACA income limit down to each state's upper Medicare limit? Those brave Republicans would get a lot of credit in their states for actually fixing a problem. When reelection time comes they could point to it and say they actually did something. Since this is just a numerical value that affects the budget I think you could pass it in reconciliation, avoiding a filibuster. Problem would be the committee heads preventing it from getting to the floors for a vote.

I'm not convinced that the voters actually care about ideology like the Hasturd Rule. (pun intended) They do seem to care about "the do-nothing Congress".

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#300060 - 03/27/17 04:41 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Spag-hetti Offline
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I believe that Trump just wanted to get rid of Obamacare because it was a major accomplishment of that black guy. Trump was not involved in drafting the promised "improvement" of the healthcare plan and it met none of his campaign promises. He handed it off to Sphincter Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, who created it in his own draconian image. The far right hated it because it wasn't draconian enough. Moderates and Democrats hated it because it would have cost people more and insure fewer people. Those brave enough to have town-hall meetings realized it could cost them their jobs if they voted for it. Trump did not even know what was in it and did not work to help get it passed. He did NOT leave it all on the field as his fawning sycophants claim.
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#300061 - 03/27/17 04:47 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
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I think he left just enough out to step on it.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300062 - 03/27/17 05:35 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: NW Ponderer]
TatumAH Offline
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Loc: Upstate NY
I have always been of the opinion, that the main motivation of most of the teaparty rabble was anti-Obama racism with just enough "fiscal conservatism" thrown in to poorly hide the racist intent and appear "patriotic". We are now able to see that hypothesis tested, by removing the black president variable. Suddenly much of the middle class working class is supportive of Obamacare with self interest trumping the residual racism associated with the name Obamacare.

I think that the teaparty, now Freedumb party in the house are misreading their current voting population, either intentionally or by mistake. We know they are avoiding town meetings like the plague. I think many of those house right wingnuts may be true believers in small gubment, and also basically racist, but I think that they have a dwindling constituency. The midterms may tell, particularly if purrceptive "moderate" GOPs start to "primary" them. Sauce for the goose seems appropriate. I hope they enjoy the basting.. How are those poor teaparty types going to mobilize the "one issue" racist voters now?
Stay tuned experiment in progress.
Tat
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#300064 - 03/27/17 07:11 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Loc: North San Diego County
The rather stunning thing is how little Trump seems to care exactly what got passed. Not a thing in the bill agreed with his campaign or even later promises. I know he wouldn't read the whole bill, but couldn't he have somebody read him a one page synopsis? What's his daughter doing in that office? Can't she look out for him so he doesn't completely ignore the people who voted for him?

The health care insurance system he promised was very popular. Why couldn't he see that this was not that? Facts matter. Is he going to do the same thing on the next big issue? Most Presidents have a staff that guides everything coming out of the White House (including from the President) to a consistent platform first outlined in campaign positions. I think this President needs that more than most.

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#300066 - 03/27/17 07:32 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

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Registered: 11/24/06
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Loc: Florida
Quote:
Most Presidents have a staff that guides everything coming out of the White House (including from the President) to a consistent platform first outlined in campaign positions. I think this President needs that more than most.

I disagree. The shortest path to impeachment/resignation is to continue the course he has set for himself. In his campaign he endorsed what sounded like single payer, everyone is insured for lower rates and better coverage. The clumsily assembled Ryancare plan he later backed was nothing short of a massive tax break for the wealthy with nothing in it really addressing health care.
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#300069 - 03/27/17 08:07 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
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PIA:: here is my spitballing on multiple approaches to HC.

First the decision has to be whether we want everyone (true universal coverage) or optimal coverage. The reason is someone has to pay for it. Of course we could just raise taxes but that obfuscates the underlying problem of what services do we want government to provide and who is going to pay for it. Absolutely no one wants to pay for hiways, what do you think they want to do with HC?

Optimalization is my choice because I believe costs can be managed and as in all things government there will be some losers. We can always work on the small subset to try and bring them onboard.

The equation is maximize coverage with acceptable costs and most importantly from a government perspective, bend the curve of rising HC cost drivers. I suspect the solution to this equation requires a single pool, not multiple pools of varying risks. Insurance is always a hedge against the worst outcomes. Not everyone views this gamble the same, but if it is to work, the pool has to be large and inclusive.

maybe you have a counter argument?
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#300071 - 03/27/17 08:32 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Mr. Porter...The ACA did raise taxes but they did it in a minimally invasive way. Optimization would simply be to adjust those taxes and to tweak the existing program.
What we have seen is that people like to be insured. Even Republicans. Once they get used to having coverage they don't like to give it up. One of the eventual tweaks to the system would be to eventually allow younger healthier people an opportunity to buy into the Medicare system, hopefully phasing more and more into it until it became a nationwide single payer system. Medicaid would also be phased into Medicare with state and federal funds used to finance those who simply can't afford coverage.

Larger pools, lower costs.
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#300074 - 03/27/17 09:55 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
There are solutions out there, and they are not that complicated. I'm a big believer in a "public option". It would be especially effective in rural markets - where Republican voters live. Opposition to a public option is not fiscal, it's philosophical. During the development of the ACA, the public option was in the bill to the end. The Origins And Demise Of The Public Option. The CBO scored it as saving up to $110 billion over 10 years.

Quote:
Costs in the private sector have been rising much faster than costs for government-provided care. Over the next nine years, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services projects that per-enrollee costs for private insurance will rise about 5% per year, about 1% faster than the 4.1% growth in nominal per-capita gross domestic product. At the same time, per-enrollee costs for Medicare will rise about 3.8% and Medicaid costs will rise about 3.6%.
How to fix Medicare the right way.

A bigger problem, in the long run, is the shortage of primary care providers. This issue, again, is particularly acute in rural America.
Quote:
Anecdotal evidence and new studies indicate that a primary care physician shortage has already begun in some areas. Almost 20 percent of Americans, 56 million people, have inadequate or no access to primary care physicians because of a shortage of providers, and a majority of them are insured, according to a report issued in March by the National Association of Community Health Centers and the American Academy of Family Physicians. Florida, Texas, and California are the hardest hit, the data show. In Texas, only 25 percent of counties in 2004 had enough primary care physicians to serve their populations, while 24 counties had no primary care doctors, according to the Star-Telegram in Fort Worth.
What the Primary Care Physician Shortage Means for Health Plans. As that article notes, this is not an issue of lack of insurance, but lack of providers.

There are many ideas and lots of information and data in the cited articles. I'd encourage the reading. Also, How Do We Get More Doctors Interested in Becoming Primary Care Physicians?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

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#300075 - 03/27/17 11:00 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Greger:: yeah I meant raising direct taxes i.e. x% increase in tax bracket 3. While even moderately intelligent folks will realize an increase is an increase no matter where it comes from, a well disguised tax is optically more palatable.

The concept of pools is interesting as it appears to me what conservatives wanted to do was segregate groups to disguise an idiots legerdemain. With healthy groups premiums would be lower, so it appears the rates have gone down, while in the other hand the high risk pool is paying astronomical rates but they are a minority so all is well. They also argued the actual rates would be lower for the high risk pool because .... well because ... and thus the cost outlay would be smaller. I don;t think that would be the case because .... basic arithmetic. If premium costs are X because HC costs are Y, it does not matter how X is subdivided, the cost will remain the same and in fact may even be higher i.e. the cost of high end care may outstrip the low end premium cost reductions of the low risk pool.

Bottom line, I think the single pool is a better spread.

NWP:: I just listened to Rep Yoho and I have to snicker. This guy has never said anything I thought remotely resembled something intelligent and today is no different but he was far more dense.

He said the HFC could work with Democrats and get stuff done. Now, he looked sober, but that sounded as if he was smoking the wacky weed and had a kumbaya epiphany. It is as you and many others have said, there is a fundamental philosophical difference between the extreme conservatives and everyone else and never the twain shall meet.

But this points out a more revealing reality. No Republican can work with Democrats because of basic conservative theology (get government out). Notice I didn't say it the other way, as I believe Democrats could work with a solution which achieved the desired goal even if a free market solution. The underlying problem is someone has to tell the free market which direction to go.

At some point in time I think a simplification should be introduced to remove employer paid insurance.
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300079 - 03/28/17 01:06 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The equation is maximize coverage with acceptable costs


Personally, if I was health care czar, I would end every health care program including military and VA, put everybody (including illegals and refugees) into one big pool, and go Canadian-style National Health. I think we have a much bigger pool and way more resources so it would work well. I would also nationalize all the drug companies and medical device manufacturers and make all their employees civil servants.

I would also nationalize all the medical and nursing schools or at least support them with federal dollars so medical training was free but with a service requirement upon graduation. There is no reason we can't train enough students to have adequate numbers of rural GPs. Maybe those will be doing their service requirement, maybe they will be the folks who entered medical school with just an A average instead of A+, maybe they will be mostly PAs.

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#300081 - 03/28/17 02:27 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13700
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Personally, if I was health care czar, I would end every health care program including military and VA, put everybody (including illegals and refugees) into one big pool, and go Canadian-style National Health.

That's the obvious answer for all us left leaners. Somehow conservatives don't approve of it because...socialism?
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#300087 - 03/28/17 07:49 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
It's weird: They're all hung up on Socialism but their guy in the White House is BFF's with the former head of the KGB.

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#300088 - 03/28/17 08:04 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
Putin is not a socialist. He's a dictator. Trump and his fellow travelers are jealous and want to be like him or one of his oligarchs. It's an adolescent fantasy.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300090 - 03/28/17 08:42 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: TatumAH]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40075
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: TatumAH
I have always been of the opinion, that the main motivation of most of the teaparty rabble was anti-Obama racism with just enough "fiscal conservatism" thrown in to poorly hide the racist intent and appear "patriotic".

Says it's not so!! coffee

Science bears this out as well:

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
Live Science.com
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#300093 - 03/28/17 11:12 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Greger]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I don't think they see it as socialism par se but as government interference in what should be done by free market forces

The problem is the free market isn't sentient and so does not know it should provide low cost universal health insurance for profit.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300140 - 03/29/17 05:10 AM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
Health insurance is not about getting somebody else (eg. the government) to pay your medical bills. It is about risk management. When you have it, you don't have to worry that you won't be able to afford the care you need.

The people who could get but don't are the same people who think they will win the lottery. Young people who think they are immortal. Older people who think they are in good health now, so they should continue to stay in good health. But we all die eventually, and almost none of us will be in good health and suddenly drop dead. That's like winning the lottery! Nice if it happens but don't plan your retirement around it. The house always wins.

Most people are lousy at risk management. We worry about things less likely than being hit by lightning twice and ignore likely causes of death or injury. It is so uncommon a skill that insurance companies have highly-trained actuaries who do nothing else but calculate the real odds of something bad happening to you. Yet another reason to pay for insurance: They know stuff you don't. Smart people recognize skills they don't have and hire an expert.

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#300150 - 03/29/17 02:21 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15118
Well said, my friend. Opposition to "health care management" by right wing ideologues is not driven by a rational thought process. Indeed, if they thought about it, they would be all about providing it in a rational manner.

The only "death spiral" on display here, is that of the Republican party. It has been infected by a cancerous cabal of know-nothings who obstruct even the things they wish for. My hope, though, is that their fervent activity will kill any tax bill as well.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300168 - 03/29/17 08:55 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1568
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I consider the republican infighting to be a real opportunity for the left to point out that they are the logical, willing to work with others, party. I just don't get it. The Republicans continue with ads on tv pointing out their superiority, etc. The dems, however, just sit there, no ads, no nuth'in. I would assume that they are awash with money given that, at the end of the Hillary run they were actually charging for Hillary signs, rather than giving them to people to put out on their lawns. Seems to me they could be putting that hoard of money to good use right now.

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#300169 - 03/29/17 09:08 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
The GOP’s War On Planned Parenthood Just Got Awkward

The azzhole who made the GOP's favorite video just got charged with 15 felonies. I wonder if they will stop promoting them now.

Quote:
Defunding Planned Parenthood was never going to be easy for Republicans: Three out of four Americans favor continuing funding for the provider, according to a Kaiser poll released last week. The 15 new criminal charges against the star of the anti-Planned Parenthood movement are only going to make that fight more politically difficult.

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#300399 - 04/04/17 09:39 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
There is something very important that I think the Republicans in Congress are ignoring, at their own personal peril: On many issues, people either favor it or not in pretty mild ways. For example, if you change the tax code there will be some winners and some losers but it is just money. Nobody is going to show up at your home to kill you because of your vote.

But the Republican proposals for changes to the ACA WILL kill people. Lots of people. Especially the current idea of getting rid of the 10 essentials and throwing sick people out of the pool. Every time somebody dies because of this, somebody else is going to blame you. And they won't be mildly pissed off (like for the tax code change). They will be happy when somebody kills you. Some of them will be willing to do it themselves, and you know you just voted to make sure crazy people can buy guns. I'm thinking particularly of fathers after their kid dies, then their wife divorces them because she can't stand the grieving, and they think they have nothing left to live for. They will come and kill or injure you or your family, then kill themselves.

It is very important to keep in mind how much you will piss off some people when you pass a bill, because you are just painting a target on your back if you ignore that.

I am not making any kind of threat. I don't have any kids or inclination to kill anybody, and I'm on Medicare so I have no horse in this race. I just see this heading in a very ugly and stupid direction and I hope it doesn't happen.

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#300401 - 04/04/17 10:05 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 5966
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I have to answer your rhetorical question ... NO

You have to get into the mind of these folks. For the last 30 years they have been told liberals lie. They believe it.

In this case, it is simply a liberal lie and liberal retribution or there is nothing to worry about.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300402 - 04/04/17 11:46 PM Re: GOP at war with itself on health care [Re: Jim D (FreeThinker)]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6528
Loc: North San Diego County
It won't matter if they see themselves as liberal or conservative, if the kid is dead because they got kicked off Medicaid. Then they are simply distraught former parents looking for somebody to blame. Those who think of themselves as conservative are even MORE likely to go after their Representative or Senator, because a lot of those folks have guns and think they are the solution for life's problems.

At least that's what the NRA has been telling them for years.

And there won't be 10 or 20. We're talking about kicking MILLIONS of people off Medicaid. People with sick kids who can get them treatment now, but couldn't if insurance companies could refuse to issue policies. There could be thousands of trigger-happy potential assassins.

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