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#300602 - 04/11/17 11:05 AM The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15566
The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video - The Atlantic. Many of you have no doubt seen video of a United Airlines passenger being forceably dragged off his flight to be "re-accommodated". The bigger scandal, the article points out is, that they can. This incident, and the corporate response, is emblematic of the rule of corporate America, not "exceptional", but routine. (Although this example may be unusual.)

This was a fully-paid customer already seated on his flight. He was a doctor, on his way to resume his practice, scheduled to see patients the next day. But the airline wanted the seat for its convenience - to send flight crew to another location - and their "convenience" superceded their contract. So, they felt justified in assaulting this gentleman by forcefully removing him from the plane. His "disruptive behavior" was, literally, saying "no".

This example is of a piece with corporate "culture" generally. It is a clear demonstration that corporations are not "people." A mantra in many a CEO's office is that their "job" is to make as much money for "the shareholders" as possible - which is patently not true, but is treated as a truism. Corporations are given their charter, and given legal status and protections, to improve society. That's "the truth." Instead, they use that form as an excuse to behave inhumanely. (They have been given a powerful ally in the appointment of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court.)

It is no surprise, really, that our "CEO" Presidents (e.g. Bush, Trump) perform so poorly. Most CEOs do as CEOs, too. (Why do CEOs fail, and what can we do about it? psychology today.) Trump's multiple business failures are the norm, not the exception. "Top executive failure rates as high as 75% and rarely less than 30%." This rate of failure has a common, familiar cause: hubris and a lack of empathy. It happens when the CEO acts like a corporation.

Consider the biggest corporate scandals: cigarette marketing, the Ford Pinto, Enron- and so many, many more. They come about when the corporate leadership forgets that their customers are human beings - and so are they. It's the kind of mentality that allows a jurist like Neil Gorsuch to put corporate "convenience" above, literally, their driver's survival. And allows an airline to justify dragging a paying customer off a plane so they can fix their personnel scheduling conflict. No, Mitt Romney, corporations aren't people too. How many more examples do you need?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300603 - 04/11/17 12:00 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
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Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8646
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
This may be a case where the free market exerts its influence to punish the corporation. I can see people all over the country looking to book a flight and saying "no freekin' way" to United.

As for United, they may be thinking about how much cheaper it would have been to charter a plane for their employees, or to have offered more money for volunteers to give up their seats. I can't see how injuring a man while evicting him from the plane (even if they had the right to do so) will end well for the company.

I see United's actions as another example of the right wing tendency for fascist authoritarianism that is in vogue these days.
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"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#300611 - 04/11/17 06:46 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7136
Loc: North San Diego County
What incredible corporate stupidity! United actually did not overbook the flight, but rather decided after the customers were seated that they wanted to kick four passengers out to move employees to man another plane at the destination. This has nothing to do with their algorithm for overbooking to fill seats. (Which they could easily fix by getting rid of overbooking and making every ticket non-refundable unless the seat was taken by a standby passenger.)

They messed up crew scheduling and they should have paid to fix it. So why not just keep offering more cash to the passengers. When they got high enough, somebody would have volunteered. $800 might not have been enough, but up around $2000 I bet they would have a dozen volunteers.

Or they could have looked at putting the crew members on another airline. Or put them in a rental car and driven! It's less than a 5 hour drive from Chicago to Louisville. For what they paid to the volunteers, they could have actually hired a driver so the crew members could sleep during the trip.

I think this is a case where all they have is a hammer, so everything looks like a nail. The point where you decide to use violence against a paying customer should be much much more than $800. More like $100,000. Think of how much the lawsuit will cost you.

Really, isn't this like saying: "The price for an Uber ride is too expensive right now so I will mug the driver and steal the car." The airline and passengers were in the middle of negotiating prices, when the airline switched tactics and went for violence. Seems criminal to me.

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#300616 - 04/11/17 11:16 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7136
Loc: North San Diego County
Here's an interesting idea. Keep negotiating but make it a reverse auction. Let every passenger who wants submit a secret bid on a piece of paper with their name on it. Then the airline picks the cheapest ones. Make it a contest to see who has the lowest price. It they did it that way, they are paying attention to how much people want to stay on the flight.

This is a lot like realizing that some people are mildly irritated by your new bill before Congress, while some people are ready to kill you for other bills. They are not all equivalent.

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#300617 - 04/12/17 12:45 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3742
Loc: Eugene, OR
Not here to excuse United’s over the top reaction to this event, but something struck me as “funny” about the passengers reaction to being removed from the flight. Please read the linked article in its entirety and see what you think:

Link
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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#300618 - 04/12/17 01:37 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15566
It turns out the crew wasn't even United personnel, but a sister airline. Dao may have been a prick, but he was, in my view, within his rights to be so.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300619 - 04/12/17 02:53 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40624
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Southwest Tweeted:



smile , LOL
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#300620 - 04/12/17 03:50 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12794
Loc: Whittier, California
I hear a lot of arguments that United's decision was LEGAL, and that the ticket has Terms of Service that stipulate these conditions. I still tossed it off anyway because the legality of their decision to unceremoniously bounce this doctor isn't the point at all.
No sir, the legality is not what's up for discussion, the OPTICS are.

They were faced with a decision to serve their employees or their customer and chose the former, and resorted to using MUSCLE to enforce said choice.
Again, it's all about the optics.
That one video erased squillions of advertising and public relations dollars in one stroke, and even if there had been NO video, a news story about the incident would have done the same.
Large corporations fail miserably at optics sometimes.
In fact, these days, they fail at it more often than not.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#300624 - 04/12/17 05:03 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Posts: 40624
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

Just about the entire Internet has come together, a rare thing indeed, to denounce United Airlines. Hmm
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#300626 - 04/12/17 08:35 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40624
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


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#300630 - 04/12/17 12:33 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15566
United has earned its name: the world is now united... Against them.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300638 - 04/12/17 04:45 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
United has earned its name: the world is now united... Against them.

Indeed! smile

United lost 3,4% of its stock value which was $250m dollars. gobsmacked
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#300642 - 04/12/17 06:29 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40624
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


United Airlines: Now beating rows 11-20
United Airlines: Up up and you can't escape
United Airlines: Even our fists our flying
United Airlines: United in our contempt for our passengers.
United Airlines: Ready to fight when you are
United Airlines: On time flights, on time fights
United Airlines: When flying is a drag, leave the dragging to us
United Airlines: Our prices are unbeatable; we can't say the same about our passengers
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#300677 - 04/13/17 07:59 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1758
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
One thing that really amazed me. The doctor, and his wife (also a doctor) were in FIRST CLASS! When an airline starts attacking its first class customers I suspect they are making a terrible error and that will certainly add to what they have done big time. As far as I know first class passengers pay 2 or more times the going rate for cattle class and slightly less for business class. In other words first class is a cash cow for them and those who fly that way tend to have loyalties to specific airlines. Now they have put that entire class at risk as ANY airline would be delighted to have them. I will be amazed if their CEO is able to keep his job.

I also find it interesting that the Chicago police just had to run their mouth about this one even though, in theory, they had nothing to do with any of it. However, now that they seem to have made it their business, they are also going to get their collective asses sued off as well.

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#300752 - 04/18/17 08:59 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
Golem Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 3642
Loc: Orange County, California, USA
I'm not a fan of "Big Business" and I'm definitely not a fan of the US airline industry.

Now, I think this guy saw an opportunity to make some money. He did his screaming fit and faked his injuries. However, United will settle and as part of the settlement, the records will be sealed, so this will never come out.

United Blew It, but End the Passenger’s Pity Party: It was a premeditated temper tantrum gone viral.

Michael Fumento
The American Conservative
April 14, 2017

Quote:
You’ve been snookered, folks. By that poor elderly doctor who was involuntarily dragged from his seat, had his face smashed in, and was beaten unconscious by the evil airport security at the behest of United Airlines.

Because there’s no evidence any of that was true. It was in fact a premeditated temper tantrum gone viral, featuring one 69-year-old Vietnamese-American David Dao, a medical doctor who’d lost his license, planning a lawsuit from the moment United first politely asked him to give up his seat. He demanded to be dragged and, when police obliged, struck his lip on an armrest. From the many videos taken by numerous passengers, from numerous angles, there’s no evidence of a beating, a “serious” concussion, or bodily damage beyond that lip.

Although some like the Huffington Post want us to ignore his sordid past as inconsequential or “blaming the victim,” it’s important that Dao in 1995 was charged with 98 felony drug counts for illegally prescribing and trafficking painkillers, sometimes in exchange for homosexual sex. (He’s married. To a woman.) That normally would get you identified as unreliable. He surrendered his medical license and even now is allowed to practice internal medicine only in an outpatient facility one day a week.

More, with reader comments

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#300753 - 04/18/17 10:08 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12794
Loc: Whittier, California
United probably won't be having any crowding issues for a very long time.
In the end, that is all that really matters, aside from the minor detail of normalizing this kind of stunt so that when it's a totally innocent person getting the snot beat out of them, social media won't care.
After all, seen one Evil Doctor Dao, seen em all, right?
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#300776 - 04/19/17 03:46 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13836
Loc: Florida
Quote:
United probably won't be having any crowding issues for a very long time.

I think you're wrong(unfortunately).
United will lose a few customers in the short term but corporations are resilient. Travelers will choose the cheapest/most convenient seats available. This will all blow over in a matter of weeks and overbooking will continue as usual.
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"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#300856 - 04/22/17 08:10 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1758
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Remember, airline bureaucracy colluded with congressional bureaucracy to write the passenger rights thing http://travelsort.com/blog/airline-passenger-bill-of-rights-what-are-flyers-rights The rights are, basically, not only what passengers are entitled to but also the simple fact that airlines have the power to do, basically, what they want to do with the passengers and, sometimes, they have to pay a little bit to really screw folks over. People tend to forget the bureaucrats are not only those nameless who toil to keep things going with, normally, paper, but also can be ceo's and a whole host of 'managers'.

There are books written on bureaucracies and how they operate. There are also books which claim that it was bureaucracies that brought down the Roman Empire and also the Chinese Empire (the Chinese actually built a religion around their bureaucrats). The basic rule is that bureaucrats will, at any opportunity, hire more minions/bureaucrats to secure the permanence of their own jobs. This is a known fact. They also tend to forget whatever their mission is supposed to be in favor of that securing the permanence of their job.

I would suggest you google "rules of bureaucracies". You will find stuff like:
https://mises.org/library/seven-rules-bureaucracy
http://www.friesian.com/bureau.htm

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#300857 - 04/22/17 09:10 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: Golem]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3742
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
Now, I think this guy saw an opportunity to make some money. He did his screaming fit and faked his injuries.

I agree with you Golem even if that might be an unpopular position here. This guy saw an opportunity and acted the roll of victim to the hilt looking for a big payout. United was stupid to walk right into his little acting job and they will pay dearly for it.

Worse than fleeing Viet Nam on a refugee boat. Give me a break. And “everything” hurts. Uh huh....Even the itty bitty tips of the hairs on his head..

I think United has learned their lesson. Now what’s this about a woman and baby stroller on a different airline?........
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#300858 - 04/22/17 09:38 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: Golem]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40624
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Golem
... I think this guy saw an opportunity to make some money...

Allowing two thugs to drag you down a plane aisle while your head banged on every arm rest along the way, losing a tooth or two, getting a concusion, is certainly sure signs of an opportunist. coffee
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#300859 - 04/22/17 10:08 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15566
Sorry, jgw, but citing Mises is like invoking Hitler - as soon as you do, all credibility goes out the window.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300860 - 04/22/17 10:13 PM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15566
I have to agree that Dao is milking this for all it's worth.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300864 - 04/23/17 01:25 AM Re: The Deeper Scandal of That Brutal United Video [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3742
Loc: Eugene, OR
First of all United was over the top with their mishandling of Dr. Dao’s forced departure by their surrogate bouncers. I will acknowledge that and not defend their actions. Dr. Dao will be substantially rewarded for his inconveniences. But….

The extent of his injuries are purely speculative and gleaned from utterances by the good doctor and his attorneys. There has been no corroborating evidence one way or the other as to the extent of his injuries. But that’s not my point. In one of his statements he posited that his ordeal was worse that that of his experience fleeing Vietnam in a refugee boat. Did he really go through such an ordeal? Perhaps, but I have seen no evidence one way or another. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and agree he had been on such a boat.

I know a woman who (really) went through such an ordeal. Her name is Phung and she fled Vietnam after the collapse in 1975 and was indeed on such a boat. Over the years I have gotten to know her quite well and, over time, she told me bit by bit of her ordeal. She was 13 at the time of her departure from Vietnam and put on the boat by herself. Her family was split up, some making it on board other boats, and some being left behind to suffer the consequences of being “US collaborators”. Their endings were not good as most of us are well aware.

She described her ordeal of going from unknown port to port, country to county, not knowing where, when, and how they would end up. Or if they would end up living at all. Her boat was intermittently invaded by pirates, and everything anyone had of even meager value was stolen. Food was always scarce if available at all.

She was repeatedly raped.

Finally, through a series of major and minor miracles, she made it to California and then ultimately up to Oregon. While in Oregon and living with her sponsor family, she met a Vietnamese man who had been through a similar ordeal. They fell in love, got married, and opened up a Vietnamese restaurant and grocery store here. Then had two daughters. Things were going great until this happened:

Quote:
A 58-year-old Eugene businessman died Sunday night after a 40-foot log rolled over him on the North Jetty beach in Florence, state police said Monday.

Link

Sorry Dr. Dao, but I am simply not shedding a tear over your bloody nose. And your plane trip “worse than leaving Vietnam on a refugee boat".
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