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#300793 - 04/19/17 08:44 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6164
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I think you have conflated separate political streams.

Mr Trump is [fill in the blanks with a large book] and may be connected in some serious way with "The Russians" BUT that has nothing to do with a Republican Houde which is dysfunctional. You can blame Mr Trump for the failure of R&R if you want to, but the reality is the Republican House is idiot-ologically split with very little chance of of working together on any serious issues.

On the flip side, unless Sen McConnell goes full-bore nuke, all ideological issues will fail.

How in this context will failure to pass any serious legislation reflect on Mr Trump?

At some point I have to guess some folks will conclude idiot-ological solutions to our problems are not a path forward. That should scare these ideologues but it won't impeach Mr Trump. For that, the weak committees investigating better find more than circumstantial evidence. It better be the stone cold nuts.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300797 - 04/20/17 12:24 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: rporter314]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13772
Loc: Florida
Oddly though, the president always gets the blame for legislative failure.
He's the great dealmaker and the man conservatives tasked with making America great again. Every time Congress fails it will land squarely on his shoulders.

Republicans don't care if he releases his tax forms and he won't.
They don't care about his alleged Russian ties. Impeachment is off the table unless Democrats seize the Senate and House(possible but very unlikely) in 2018.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#300801 - 04/20/17 02:17 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6827
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Unless the current (or perhaps future independent and objective) investigations find enough evidence for probable cause of specific tax related information to the Russian-Trump campaign confluence, probably won't happen.


But there's where you are wrong: Impeachment has nothing to do with probable cause and normal criminal procedures. The House doesn't even need to claim that a particular crime has been committed. It only has to show that the President is acting unethically and in a non-Presidential matter, and Trump has already done that in spades. All of Trump's past dealings with lawsuits, fraud, etc. don't apply here because impeachment is not about normal crime. It is about HIGH crimes and misdemeanors, which are only things that can be done by someone with high office. Things like corruption, abuse of power, and dishonesty. All he has to do is use his position to benefit himself or his family, and you have grounds for impeachment. He has probably already committed hundreds of such acts because of his business activities.

If members of Congress in his adopted Party choose not to act, then that makes them just as guilty. Their political future will be destroyed by that co-conspiracy. Their jobs are threatened NOW.

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#300810 - 04/20/17 05:13 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6164
Loc: Highlands, Tx
impeachment would be the ultimate conclusion of all the evidence of which tax returns may be a part

the reality is conservatives don't care what the facts are since they operate in an alternate political universe .... one in which liberals lie .... the MSM lies .... etc. Thus when you say their jobs are threatened solely because Mr Trump is a liability, I don;t think that is valid.

The current special in the 6th suggests to me Republicans are fractured politically and ideologically. This was noted by many prior to the election and I think we see it in the 6th. However there may be a new component at play i.e. an energized opposition (to Mr Trump) movement.

Many Americans harbor an extreme distrust of the Federal government in no small part to the propaganda of the last 40 years. Mr Trump represents one of theirs at the helm. Compare Pres Obama's support at the same time in 2009 with mR Trumps support now - 84% v 85%.

The world has changed and I believe the thinking which analyzed the election in 2009 is no longer valid.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300816 - 04/20/17 11:58 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6827
Loc: North San Diego County
We shall see. They won't be in power forever. There might be enough of a backlash that they aren't in power for long. All of this alt-facts nonsense crumbles in the face of an activist attorney general and grand juries. People who crossed the line into criminal behavior may be indicted and convicted, even if their alt-viewpoint sees it as partisan politics now.

VERY FEW judges, appointed by either Democrats or Republicans have much patience with "alt-facts". It's like going into court with sovereign citizen arguments. You end up being removed or gagged for the duration of your trial, and then carted off immediately to prison.

Even if they are not indicted, they have to run with all the stuff on the internet that never goes away where they are supporting a disgraced traitor driven from office. In fact, I will predict a new generation of Ethical Republicans that try to replace all the discredited current crop.

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#300843 - 04/22/17 03:51 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: pondering_it_all]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15364
The White House reveals what next week’s ‘big announcement’ on taxes will look like - WaPo. Literally, "nothing to see here, folks."
Quote:
The White House will release on Wednesday the “broad principles and priorities” of their plans to overhaul federal taxes, a White House official said Friday night, downplaying expectations that the Trump administration would reveal key details underpinning the plan.


I am a big believer in substantial tax reform, but what is being offered is not that, but a continuation of the effort, going back decades, to continue to funnel money to the best-off and burden those who actually work for a living.
Quote:
Neither Trump’s tax plan (the one from the campaign; he hasn’t offered a new one as president) nor the Better Way plan from House Republicans, which could play just as an important role in shaping the tax reforms that Congress ultimately passes, is designed to primarily help the middle class. Only 6.6 percent of the cost of Trump's plan goes to cuts for the middle fifth of taxpayers, households making between $48,400 and $84,300 a year, according to the Tax Policy Center. By contrast, a whopping 47.3 percent goes to the top 1 percent, and nearly a quarter goes to the top 0.1 percent, all of whom make over $3.75 million a year.
President Trump's disingenuous middle-class tax cut pitch Every Republican "reform" has been detrimental to the American working class, the deficit, and the economy.
Quote:
There’s little mystery why it’s been 30 years since the last comprehensive tax-reform law: Tax reform is a nightmare.

It takes extraordinary political focus, the capacity to withstand months of bureaucratic infighting, the fortitude to ignore relentless lobbying from organizations losing their favorite tax benefits, and devoted White House stewards who are prepared to guide the bill through this maelstrom for months, or even years. Trump and Republicans in Congress gave up on health-care reform after 17 days. The White House has already blamed the bill’s failure on the same representatives it will need to pass tax reform.
Tax Reform Will Be a Nightmare - the Atlantic.

Rather than entering the nightmare, however, Trump's "Tax Experts" are suggesting a fantasy instead:
Quote:
President Barack Obama proposed lowering the corporate tax rate several years ago, but he also proposed raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans as a way to offset some of the lost revenue. This led to major blowback from many Republicans who saw it as a way of raising taxes. He also proposed limiting the deductions that the wealthiest Americans could claim, something that was also rejected.

Trump administration officials have said they will propose limiting some tax breaks, but this is not expected to be a big component of their plan. Instead, they are going to assume future economic growth caused by the tax cuts will create trillions of dollars in new revenue, a controversial assumption that many GOP congressional aides on Capitol Hill have cautioned against.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300854 - 04/22/17 07:23 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1632
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
When Bush did his tax cuts it adding, if I remember correctly, something like 200 pages to the existing system. As far as I can tell the Republican tax fix is yet another add-on to the existing system (all existing corp welfare will remain in place). I cannot imagine the number of pages that will be added this time around. We, obviously, need a complete overhaul - just not gonna happen, I fear. The current tax code is around 2500 pages long. On top of that there is something called the CCH tax reporter which is over 70,000 pages long and, apparently exists to explain the initial 2500 pages of the actual code itself. By the time the Republicans have finished their tax deal I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the mess grow by thousands of pages. This, of course, also means that the system will become a book of mysteries and, probably, a bit mystical as well.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_p..._000_pages.html
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-y9G9A_zuf7I/U...pileup-2013.PNG

If nothing else our tax system provides a LOT of work. At the top level we have the congress, and their thousands of bureaucrats. I doubt, very much, that there is a single member of those august bodies that understand what they have wrought. Then there is the priest/accounting class hard at work trying to deal with a system no single human could possibly understand. The flock (thee and me) just bumble on, hoping somebody will fix the damned thing whilst, at the same time, understanding that it is only going to get worse. I can't even begin to imagine what happens when it simply overwhelms. It also serves to illustrate, on a daily basis, just how poorly we are governed, by those who constantly claim to be acting in OUR interests.

This is, incidentally, that results of the American Voting Public doing its thing and worshipping at the altar of perception whilst ignoring fact.

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#300855 - 04/22/17 07:36 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6827
Loc: North San Diego County
Meanwhile, in the real world, the tax code that applies to you is pretty simple. All of those little loopholes apply to special situations, like owning a coal mine, going blind, etc.

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#300861 - 04/22/17 10:54 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15364
I dutifully did my taxes and submitted my 1040, and various schedules (so many extra forms!). I owed taxes this year for the first time in over a decade - in the hundreds ($342 on $3100 of "income" - all for SS and Medicare). None of the deductions I formerly took have any value anymore - mortgage, charity, medical, etc. Isn't it strange that I pay a higher percentage on the little "wages" I earned from self employment than on investment income (0.0%)/Capital gains? I should have quit working sooner!
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#300862 - 04/23/17 12:07 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ujest Shurly Offline
stranger

Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 214
Loc: Michigan, USA
"... they are going to assume future economic growth caused by the tax cuts will create trillions of dollars in new revenue, a controversial assumption that many GOP congressional aides on Capitol Hill have cautioned against."


Republicans have historically counted the chickens before the eggs were even laid.
_________________________
Vote 2018

Life is like a PB&J sandwich
The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

Now, get off my grass!

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