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#300863 - 04/23/17 12:32 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15364
Republicans tend to count fantasy chickens.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300865 - 04/23/17 01:43 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6827
Loc: North San Diego County
The Laffer Curve is a real thing but it has a bell-curve-like shape. We happen to be on the upper half, so if they lower tax rates the government will collect LESS money in taxes, not more. That "cut taxes, collect more" effect only works when you are on the lower half of the curve.

Take us back to Reagan's tax rates and it might work.

In fact, that might be a good slogan for Democrats: "Let's go back to Ronnie's tax rates."

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#300869 - 04/23/17 10:50 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6164
Loc: Highlands, Tx
conservatives have always claimed dynamic scoring is the only way to accurately reflect changes in financial issues.

It will be even worse if they when they score tax reform this time as they have already mentioned a GDP of 3-5% as a direct result of tax reform.

If they instead would shot for the stars, they should claim 12% and really be in the money.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300870 - 04/23/17 02:09 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15364
PIA, I agree with your Laffer curve analysis. Cutting taxes will no longer have a positive effect. Ironically, I agree that corporate rates should be lowered, but only if all the loopholes are removed. There really is no reason for large corporations to get favored treatment. It eliminates competition when competition is most needed. Startups and small businesses should get preferences.

Also, ironically, in Washington State the existing solar industry has manipulated the law to keep Tesla (Solar City) out. Solar City uses a "lease" model for its installations (keeping savings in its pockets), whereas in Washington only sales are allowed to accept government subsidies.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#300880 - 04/23/17 05:26 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6164
Loc: Highlands, Tx
The tax code is very complex in every respect. One would think taking money from one place and putting in another is simple but there are other considerations.

The easiest reform would be to remove all the special interest loopholes.

The 16th Amendment was meant to collect revenue, not manipulate the free market.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300884 - 04/23/17 06:08 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: rporter314]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15364
Originally Posted By: rporter314
The tax code is very complex in every respect. One would think taking money from one place and putting in another is simple but there are other considerations.

The easiest reform would be to remove all the special interest loopholes.

The 16th Amendment was meant to collect revenue, not manipulate the free market.
I so thoroughly agree.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#300886 - 04/23/17 06:25 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15364
Article I, SECTION 8, begins: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States[.] The remainder of the section provides what Congress can do with those monies. The implication, of course, is that Congress can only collect what it needs. But the greater implication is that the tax system is not contrary to the "General Welfare" of the citizenry.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#300889 - 04/23/17 08:36 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: rporter314]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6827
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The tax code is very complex in every respect.


Yes it is, but most of the complexity is necessary: There are blatant things in there designed to benefit single industries or even single companies, but those probably make up less than 1% of the tax code.

The vast bulk of the code is there to make tax collection fair in complex situations. Simplify the code and you will make tax collection UNFAIR in those complex situations. The result will be economic disruption because smart people will then exploit the loopholes the simplification creates.

Be careful what you wish for.

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#300901 - 04/24/17 10:53 PM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6164
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
The vast bulk of the code is there to make tax collection fair in complex situations.

These are special interests looking for benefits. Some are justified and others ... well .... it essentially allows some people to get richer at the expense of the people.

Here are some examples:
credit for low income housing developments
accelerated depreciation
deferred income for multi-nationals

Just guessing but I would estimate it to be about $100B/yr in lost revenue.

I think if one wants to level the taxing field, one would take out all the code which makes people richer. When I get a deduct, it keeps me from getting poorer. Maybe that would be a criterion for starters.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#300903 - 04/25/17 01:13 AM Re: No Reform Without the Forms [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6827
Loc: North San Diego County
>credit for low income housing developments

Really you object to that, when developers could build fancy houses or condos on the same plot and make a lot more money? If they were not compensated, there would be no low income housing.

>accelerated depreciation

I've used this several times on my farm. Straight line depreciation is just such a pain in the ass. Immediately expensing it every time I buy a new weedwacker or chainsaw is just so much easier for everybody. The paperwork for years of depreciation costs more than the item. The main advantage is it makes your tax return simpler by avoiding multiyear carryovers.

The one big loophole I can think of is treating hedgefund managers income like long term capital gains. THAT costs us billions.

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