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#300390 - 04/04/17 07:11 PM Sanity
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1570
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I have always believed that the way our political system works is really pretty simple. We have two basic groups/parties - one represents the left and one represents the right. The left, basically, believes that human beings will not always act in their own best interest and need to regulation to survive - to one degree or another. The right believes that human beings will always act in their own best interest, if given a chance to do so - again, to one degree or another.

The plan, I believe, is that both sides will debate issues and, if they can agree on any part of the debate, and agree it needs attention, will put their heads together and take care of as much of any given problem as they can both agree on.

This system is based on the belief that all sides are represented by persons that are interested in the success and welfare of the entities they have been elected to represent. Included is the simple belief that both sides are willing to set aside differences in an effort to find points of agreement by discussion and debate. I find that people tend to confuse this with something called "politics". Politics, I believe is when one side, or both sides, are less interested in the success and welfare of the entities they represent than "winning" and "personal aggrandizement". Currently the obvious goal has little to do with the entities they represent and a lot to do with politics.

We, currently, seem to be in a phase wherein both sides, when in power, tend to punish the other side and neither side has any interest in even speaking to the other side - irregardless of subject or entity needs. This seems to be a gift from past speaker Gingrich who preached the "don't give and inch and no compromise no matter how small". This was, incidentally, marginally successful until embraced by both sides and the result has been, basically, legislative failure on a spectacular range of blather.

Currently we have a situation where the party in power (Republicans - the Right) has become so hidebound that they cannot even bother to find common ground amongst themselves, and even referring to the Democrats-the left, in other than disparaging terms has become the norm.

I have no idea what can be done to fix this one. The most hidebound seem to spring from districts so gerrymandered that they can win re-election no matter what and have absolutely no reason to change their ways as they can keep their jobs no matter what.

HOWEVER! I believe that most of our elected (at least a majority) on both sides, fall into the original concept - willing to speak to the other side and find common ground, etc. The problem is that their leadership puts a stop to such nonsense wherever, and whenever, it occurs. I wonder what would happen if civilized members of both sides simple demonstrated backbone and intelligence enough to actually start to speak to each other with civility and interest instead of the current lack of both.

We have built a government which is not geared for the entire nation. The drug companies, for instance, have virtually taken over the FDA which has resulted in all sorts of disasters. Our department of agriculture is dedicated to corporate agriculture and money lending. Our department of defense, which manages to spend more money that the total expenditures of the next 7 largest military's in the world. Our national system of education, which is shut down for over one quarter of the year for summer, Christmas, Easter, teacher stuff, meetings, etc. rates, on a world scale low, whilst we spend almost twice as much on and, for some strange reason, believe we can do it whilst giving our children more than 25% less teaching than expended in the rest of the world. These problems have all been with us for a very long time and through periods wherein one party, or the other, has had complete control of legislature and executive. Basically, neither party has been able, for a very long time, to actually act in the interest of those entities represented and, I think, BOTH are at fault.

The simple fact is that we have this system because WE keep on supporting it with our votes - on either side. We keep electing those who are, obviously, more interested in the keep their jobs than doing their jobs. They are able to do this by demonizing (mostly lying about) the other side and we, the electorate, buy it. In other words, in the end, WE are the ones responsible for our current state of mess and failure. The situation is so bad, so disgusting, that many voted in our current president - the jackass, in the hope that something would change. What we are getting is an oligarchy of generals and friends of Trump - a system similiar to that of Russia. I fear its just gonna get worse and I wish us all good luck.

My personal belief is that we need candidates, on both sides, that freely admit that our current government needs to be fixed - bigtime. They will not call for change they will call for fixing a wrecked system, infrastructure, unfair legislation, etc. The change card has been played repeatably and it just doesn't work.

Just saying ................

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#300396 - 04/04/17 09:16 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6541
Loc: North San Diego County
I think you're wrong to equate both sides. Note that it was Gingrich who came up with the "no compromise" idea. It was Hastert who came up with his "only my Party" rule. Only Republicans will propose something and then vote against it because a Democrat liked it. Hell, one Republican actually sponsored a bill and then voted against it because it got Democratic support.

Democrats usually don't have that attitude. If Republicans propose something they like, they will vote for it. Republicans act like this is some sort of character defect, but it is what you are looking for and what our Representatives are supposed to do.

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#300397 - 04/04/17 09:24 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1570
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I would love to believe that its only the Republicans, however, a single example might tend to belie that. The when Citizens United was passed by the supremes that judgement said, specifically, that the congress could still force them that put up the ads to reveal their identity. The Dems made a run at that and failed and they owned the congress (so have the Republicans with the same results). The same holds true with the rules/giveaways regarding the drug companies. The list is long. When the Dems were in charge, at the beginning of the Obama administration the cries of being shut out, by the right were loud, clear and true. As far as I am concerned nobody is not at fault on this stuff. Its happening, right now. The left has decided to not talk, not debate, no nothing - just fight anything the Republicans put up - good or bad (admittably the good are few and far between but, still ....)

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#300400 - 04/04/17 09:53 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6541
Loc: North San Diego County
I don't think the Republicans were shut out in the months that lead up to the ACA. The ACA is almost identical to RomneyCare, but the opt out fee is lower! Republicans had every opportunity to suggest anything useful to the plan. It took so long to pass because they kept trying to get bipartisan support. Democrats even got rid of the public option to make it more appealing to Republicans.

Of course, they would have looked like morons for insisting on changes to what was essentially their own plan. Not voting for it was just the stupid Hastert rule. The complaints of "being shut out" were just Republican propaganda because they chose to be shut out!

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#300423 - 04/05/17 07:28 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1570
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I watched the mark up of the ACA and half of that law was written by the Republicans! After that, however, not a one of them voted for what they had written. When Obama came in he tried, very hard, to get the Republicans to even talk but he failed. It was actually worse in that they publicly announced that they would fight ANYTHING Obama tried to do. I blame the Republicans for the way the ACA was written as well as the Dems. (it was really poorly written and left something like 25% to be filled out by the bureaucracy who didn't exactly hold back with the regulations). If you read the original bill you will noticed a number of "______" which were flags to be filled in later. Obama actually tried to fix the bill but the Republicans would not hear of it.

The problem, I continue to believe, is that our nation runs on perception, rather than reality, and I am not sure how that can be fixed.

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#300428 - 04/05/17 10:26 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13705
Loc: Florida
Quote:
The problem, I continue to believe, is that our nation runs on perception, rather than reality, and I am not sure how that can be fixed.

The "perception" that Republicans are capable of governing is the one that needs to be fixed. Thus far they are doing their best to dispel that notion.
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#300429 - 04/05/17 10:48 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15137
Originally Posted By: jgw
When the Dems were in charge, at the beginning of the Obama administration the cries of being shut out, by the right were loud, clear and true.
I'd like some evidence or references that would demonstrate it "was true". I know that they claimed that, but other than a few procedural votes, they never participated - at all. It wasn't that they were "shut out" - it's that they didn't play.
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#300432 - 04/05/17 11:16 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6541
Loc: North San Diego County
Very soon in Obama's term it became the Republican's only goal to see that everything he did failed. History books will mark that as the point that Republicans became traitors. And if you're going to be a traitor, anything goes.

Obama managed to accomplish quite a lot in spite of that.

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#300467 - 04/06/17 07:11 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1570
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The Republicans did this very publicly and it was shown all over the place. They did not, for instance, allow Obama to try and fix ACA. Now, as far as the Republicans crying about being shut out. I clearly remember it but can no longer find any references to it. This being the case I must have been wrong about that. Sorry ................

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#300468 - 04/06/17 07:17 PM Re: Sanity [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40081
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Very soon in Obama's term it became the Republican's only goal to see that everything he did failed. History books will mark that as the point that Republicans became traitors. And if you're going to be a traitor, anything goes.

Obama managed to accomplish quite a lot in spite of that.

Exactly.

Yet Trump has both the Executive and Legislative branches and still can't manage to get major policy through. Clearly the sign of complete and utter object failure - so we should not be surprised. Hmm
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