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#300794 - 04/19/17 09:35 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1765
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The thought about poor people voting for Trump reminds me. For years I ran companies that hired a lot of poor people (most of those jobs are now automated, incidentally). Before every election I would gather them all up and plead with them to simply vote. I pointed out that people that do not vote get screwed over, that it was important, that it was a duty, etc. I also told them they didn't even have to make a choice if they didn't want to - just submit the ballot but VOTE! Guess what, after doing this for at least 50 years I never could get more than about 20% to vote. In talking to them I got the impression that they actually didn't vote because they didn't think it made any difference, and little else. So the poor don't vote, blacks don't always vote (a good example of that one was where the black kid got killed and tv showed the police and city council where it happened and they were all white (that did change as they figured it out)). Teenagers don't vote either (if you don't they they are screwed over consider their college debts, their education, etc). There are also a couple other groups but I think the above is enough. I am, incidentally, for mandatory voting - Australia did it and it changed things for the better.

I cannot resist. I have also noticed that most of the people still smoking are either young or poor, or both. So, many folks who don't vote tend to also not have a genuine capacity to act in their own best interest. Just saying.................


Edited by jgw (04/19/17 09:35 PM)

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#300800 - 04/20/17 01:54 AM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: Eugene, OR
Quote:
I cannot resist. I have also noticed that most of the people still smoking are either young or poor, or both. So, many folks who don't vote tend to also not have a genuine capacity to act in their own best interest. Just saying.................


Add to that those with mental issues who are huge tobacco smokers. So tobacco does provide some kind of relief-- for some. Which I have long been an advocate of investigating why.

What you have said is true. Although uttering the truth is sometimes difficult in this monitored world. But I wonder about mandatory voting. That will never pass muster in the US but it is an intriguing idea. But-if that were to be so-would you think those forced to vote would vote in their own best interests?
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#300803 - 04/20/17 03:04 AM Re: Sanity [Re: Ken Condon]
TatumAH Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 385
Loc: Upstate NY
Nicotine, the Wonder Drug?

Nicotine has long been known to help with focus, with or without ADHD. Just ask any student smoker prepping for organic chemistry or calculus exams. 2 pack per day were not unusual, though those days were frequently 24 hours without sleep.
It also seem beneficial in Parkinsonism, and some psychiatric conditions, related to decreased CNS dopamine, which is increased by nicotine. Nicotinic_acetylcholine_receptors have been studied since the mid 1800, and are one of the two basic types of acetylcholine receptors, mimicked by nicotine.

Curiously it is easy to get animals including rodents and non-human primates (see avatar) addicted to tobacco, but much harder to produce with pure nicotine.

But I digress, shocked LOL on a tangential, though related topic, for another time. Leonard Cohen, whose music all who suffered in the 60s remembers, stopped smoking when told he should, if he wanted to live to be an old man. On his 80th birthday he ceremoniously re-started smoking on stage, commenting that since he was now an old man, there was no reason to deprive himself of tobacco. I am assembling a Cohen memorial thread for the passing parade. It may possibly have a warning to those taking or considering re-upping SSRI treatment. His humor is under-appreciated by some!

Tat
_________________________
There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit

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#300804 - 04/20/17 03:35 AM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7151
Loc: North San Diego County
Tobacco and alcohol are our most common self-medications. Who hasn't heard somebody say: "I need a smoke to calm me down." or "I really need a drink to relax." People are really using them for basic mood modification. If they had access to them, they would be popping pills or smoking pot instead because some of these things have fewer bad side effects than tobacco or alcohol.

I think we need to radically rethink self-medication by creating a scale of dangerous side effects and potential for accidental overdose. Then make the bottom end available to any adult, make the middle available with medical supervision, and make to top end illegal. But take all the political posturing out of the equation by not letting the DEA have any input. These ratings would be strictly evidence-based by legitimate peer-reviewed medical research.

So pot would probably be freely available to any adult (nobody has ever died from an overdose), alcohol would probably be prescription-only (dangerous to your liver, alcohol poisoning, addiction, etc.), and methamphetamine would be illegal. I think most of the hallucinogens would be in the middle group: You would need some medical supervision to get them, though that would not be a normal doctor's prescription.

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#300806 - 04/20/17 04:00 AM Re: Sanity [Re: TatumAH]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: Eugene, OR
Ya know what is curious to me Tat? I was never a tobacco smoker. Pot yes--in the younger teen/early 20ís days. And back then I absolutely loved it. But when I tried to smoke tobacco as a teen it made me violently ill. I would spin and eventually puke if I smoked too much tobacco-about three puffs. Which I sometimes did as teen while riding home in a carpool trying to impress my girlfriend. I would then go home to my bed and spin mercilessly.

Both my parents were tobacco smokers. My dad preferred unfiltered Camels (three packs a day) and I would hear him waking up at night about 3:00AM going hack-wheeze-hack-cough-hack. I would go to the hall and see him fumble for the match and light it, then suck on the stick. Coughówheezeó and continue until his Jones was fixed. My mom also smoked a lot but not with that intensity. As did my (only) sister until she was in her mid 20ís.

Why I was allergic to it I will never know. Genetics has always fascinated me. Hence my avatar uncle. Why some people seem to benefit from tobacco, crave it, and enjoy it, I will never know. And why it is so maligned before any sort of investigation is done as to itís possible benefits has befuddled me.

That is why I find your link so interesting.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#300819 - 04/21/17 08:54 AM Re: Sanity [Re: Ken Condon]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7151
Loc: North San Diego County
If there was ANYTHING to investigate and publish scientifically about the benefits of tobacco, I'm sure Big Tobacco would have funded it up the wazoo. It might help people with Parkinson's (a very small market) and it soothes addicts, but the addiction and cancer, etc. is far far worse than the mood-altering benefits.

There are much better soothing medications that don't give you cancer or lung disease! If drug companies were looking at tobacco now, it would never get out of stage 1 trials. Probably never even get to human trials at all.

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#300820 - 04/21/17 02:34 PM Re: Sanity [Re: pondering_it_all]
Ken Condon Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 3756
Loc: Eugene, OR
While sitting I stand corrected. I meant to use the word nicotine instead of tobacco. In my haste I failed to proofread it before I sent it. Lo siento.

But I think itís the hot tarry substances contained within combusted plant matter that cause more harm to the lungs than the chemicals within. Same is true for marijuana. I donít think any hot tarry smoke is good for the lungs. In an attempt to mitigate the dangers of inhaling the burnt plant material the pot people embraced the vape system which tobacco guys quickly adopted. This is supposedly easier on the lungs.

Tobacco contains other substances besides nicotine as the article states. Just as does marijuana. Perhaps one of the additional substances contained in tobacco is more carcinogenic and/or harmful than the nicotine when combusted. Some of the legal cannabis vendors in my neck tout the CBD contained within as the pain reliever substance rather than the more psychoactive THC.

Itís all a puzzle.
_________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.

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#300824 - 04/21/17 04:42 PM Re: Sanity [Re: Ken Condon]
TatumAH Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/18/11
Posts: 385
Loc: Upstate NY
Plastic surgeons agree that smoking or even nicotine by gum or vaping has a deleterious effect on plastic surgery outcomes. Many even test for urinary nicotine metabolites in urine, right before surgery, and reject those that test positive. Many also have statements in the consent for operation, that they understand that smoking or nicotine increases their risks of poor outcomes. I researched this recently, as I was consulted by a smoking relative who was going to have a plastic eyelid repair, that is actually not cosmetic surgery, but recognized as therapeutic and reimbursed by third party payers and medicare.


plastic-surgery-patients-who-smoke

Nicotine is a recognized vasoconstrictor that decreases blood supply to small vessels. Gum disease is common in smokers, and non-smokers for that matter, and I tried to find studies that tested vaping for effect on gum disease and oral health in general. The American dental association looked at this and did not find an adverse effect from vaping. This surprised me, as I expected it to be an obvious adverse effect. The studies were short term. More study is indicated for possible chronic effects. Vaping is relatively new, and butts were originally thought to be healthfull.

Tat

I understand that these surgeons pay extraordinary malpractice premiums, and are looking for anything that may help protect them from claims.
_________________________
There's nothing wrong with thinking
Except that it's lonesome work
sevil regit

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#300831 - 04/21/17 08:18 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7151
Loc: North San Diego County
Nicotine is also a very toxic insecticide used in agriculture! It does sometimes kill people who accidentally swallow too much tobacco. Seems kind of insane to dose yourself with tiny amounts of poison because it mildly alters your mood. I would recommend masturbation instead, if you feel a compulsion to do something with your hands that feels good.

Re plastic surgery: I see people my age and I can instantly tell who is a smoker, just by looking at their faces.

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#300834 - 04/21/17 09:24 PM Re: Sanity [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1765
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think there is no question that smoking is bad for you. I loved to smoke. I quit because, these days, you just can't go anyplace if you smoke. Everytime I drive by a tavern, and see the huddled, sometimes rained on, smokers out there in the cold I congratulate myself on stopping. Then, when I see a carton going for over 100.00 and a pack going for over 10.00 I also give myself another little pat for not smoking myself into bankruptcy. All that health stuff is just yet another bonus. When I quit I was very close to 4 packs a day.

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