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#301068 - 05/05/17 01:14 AM healthcare a
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1591
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am watching cnn and they are talking about the new healthcare bill. The Republicans cleverly didn't have the bill vetted for what it does (last time they did that the report was so bad it failed to pass).

Anyway, the first thing is that we are, basically, the ONLY nation on earth that does not control the prices the greedy healthcare industry charges. There are even books written on this one! The obscenity of what the drug industry does is just the tip of the iceburg. I watched somebody, who has a new book on the subject, say that what has happened is that the healthcare industry has discovered that they can charge whatever they want and people will pay it. This, of course, means that there is no competition at all. One price goes up EVERYBODY jumps on that bandwagon! The drug industry was probably the test for everybody else and they have, now, all figured it out. OUR congress has actually passed a bill that made it illegal for anybody to get their drugs from Canada (a LOT cheaper), the insurance companies seems to have also joined in this party of greed. It is REALLY time for this nation to join up with the rest of the world and simply admit that health is not a for profit thing so much as a social thing and it needs to be controlled and provided. If the rest of the world can do this I see no reason, except for the obvious, offensive, and greed of our elected class. We no longer live longer than the rest of the industrialized world. Our babies no longer survive more than others in the industrialized world. We are, again basically, number 1 in healthcare in one thing - COST! (we pay more than 2 times more than the rest of the industrialized world for less care).

For those who believe that people who are under single payer they should go to Canada and find one person who would prefer our system. I live in a town that believe that baloney about Canadians flooding down here for care. Our hospital changed its name, rebuilt itself, spent thousands advertising in Victoria, BC (they are close) and garnered nothing but more debt and nary a single Canadian patient. (the board was all Republican when this happened. It did prove, however, that Republicans actually believe their own baloney).

On the upside this new healthcare bill just may be the thing that loses Trump his support. I am basing this on what I see in his crowd of supporters and, I suspect, they are going to start losing their insurance. The Republicans have already done much to make sure that Obamacare fails. Its gonna get interesting. They are also reporting that they changed stuff in medicare. Here is what they think is in the new bill:
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots...ealth-care-bill

I also think that the congress gets to keep their insurance no matter what. On the up side, once this gets to be law, news about health, and the new law, may actually replace what we have now, for news, basically Trump TV. My fond hope is that we can also replace the right in 2018.

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#301072 - 05/05/17 03:40 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6021
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I don;t this has anything to do with HC for conservatives. It has everything to do with the federal government and money. This is strictly idiot-ological for them. Get government out of the business (or who cares if sick people die), give tax cuts to wealthy and extend the money giveaway with more tax cuts. Is there a word about HC in all of that????

Here is the proposition: if there is a plan which covers more people, cheaper than anything conservatives can make the free market do and if government was involved, they would vote against it .... I guarantee .... because it is not about health care

If any reporter had the temerity to ask the question, conservatives would run from the answer.


Edited by rporter314 (05/05/17 03:41 AM)
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#301073 - 05/05/17 08:56 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40131
Loc: Puget Sound, WA

In their Pledge to America, the Republicans said:

Quote:
We will ensure that bills are debated and discussed in the public square by publishing the text online for at least three days before coming up for a vote in the House of Representatives. No more hiding legislative language from the minority party, opponents, and the public. Legislation should be understood by all interested parties before it is voted on.


#1 Republicans are going to pass Trumpcare WITHOUT posting the bill on line.
#2 Republicans are going to pass Trumpcare WITHOUT a score from the CBO.

WHY are the sanctimonious Republicans doing all this?

The Republicans are too cowardly to tell at least 24 million Americans they will LOSE their healthcare, senior citizens will see their premiums will rise 750%, the limited pre-existing condition coverage ONLY lasts for 5 years. And the poor, will go back to dying because they can't afford healthcare.

It will be interesting to see how many town hall meeting Republicans cancel, or just don't show up for next week when they go home?
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#301076 - 05/05/17 05:31 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6021
Loc: Highlands, Tx
If the Australian healthcare system is so great Mr Trump, why didn't you propose something similar?

Folks this is another example of what I said previously. For conservatives it is not about health care.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#301077 - 05/05/17 05:43 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6021
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Sec Price said this is but the first step [to complete removal of government from helping anyone].

If these characters hate the federal government so much, why haven't they written a bill to dissolve the federal government?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#301082 - 05/05/17 07:17 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2127
Loc: Pennsylvania
Man, and I was hoping to be able to retire at 65. I was hoping for sooner, but since you have to be 65 to get Medicaid, I wouldn't be able to pay for insurance before then. If this passes, it looks like I will have to work until I die just so we can continue to be able to afford the insurance.

Look for everything under the sun to be moved into the "high-risk pre-existing conditions" pool. I think everything possible will be forced into that pool. Then heaven forbid if you would lose your job and not be able to get insurance again for 3 months. There goes your rate 30%.

Depressing! Oops - I'm sure that is a pre-existing condition!

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#301084 - 05/05/17 07:38 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: Kaine]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
No, you can still get Medicare at 65. This bill doesn't change that. I think my Part B is about $120 per month. Part A and Medicare Advantage are free, though you can find Medicare Advantage plans that cost more.

My Medicare Advantage plan includes drug coverage that is equivalent to Part D. The only bad thing about it is there is no maximum out-of-pocket on the drug coverage, so I am paying about $6000 per year for my $65,000 drug. After you spend enough, you get into Catastrophic Care where you spend 5% of drug cost. But the drug companies can charge whatever they want, so 5% of a million dollars is still $50,000!

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#301088 - 05/05/17 09:04 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: pondering_it_all]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2127
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
No, you can still get Medicare at 65. This bill doesn't change that.


As of right not I can get it at 65, but if this new bill passes will I be able to afford it on a fixed income at that time? I have 8 years until 65.

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#301089 - 05/05/17 09:41 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
Considering that the House and Senate go Democratic in 2018, and then the Presidency in 2020, I wouldn't worry about Medicare going away too much. Republicans have pretty much signed their political death warrants. Looking forward to billboards like: "Daryl Issa just voted to murder you."

In some Red States as many as 33% of the population has some sort of preexisting condition! Tell me they're not going to be pissed off when their health insurance goes up by 10 times. Republicans think the non-sick will be so happy with their cheaper crappy insurance policies, they can do without the votes of the sick. But the numbers don't work.

It's just in their DNA: Every time they get to hold the gun, they promptly shoot themselves in the foot. About 100 days this time.

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#301090 - 05/05/17 10:08 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
Kaine Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 2127
Loc: Pennsylvania
I like your optimism!

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#301092 - 05/06/17 12:11 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8492
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Originally Posted By: jgw
The obscenity of what the drug industry does is just the tip of the iceburg.


At least their profits are healthy!
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." Logtroll

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#301093 - 05/06/17 01:23 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3447
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Only Liberals are silly enough to believe that the Health Care Industry has anything to do with health care, per se. Like everything else in the Greatest Country the World Has Ever Known, the Health Care Industry exists in order to generate profit for the Job Creators.

Just as Ford could care less if a truck buyer drives their truck or not, as long as they purchase a Ford truck with some regularity, Aetna doesn't care if their policy holders get health care or not, as long as they pay their premiums. In fact the less someone drives their truck or attempts to get health care, the more likely they will be satisfied with their purchase and so more likely to make a similar purchase in the future.
_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberius Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#301094 - 05/06/17 08:39 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: Kaine]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40131
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Kaine
I like your optimism!

We ALL do! smile
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#301097 - 05/06/17 04:26 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15179
My wife had a Caesarean when our first son was born. Because of that, her disability insurance was denied for a "preexisting condition." When she was actually disabled 25 years later for an unrelated reason, she could only get the $50/month from being a State employee.

We can all expect that EVERY condition will be deemed preexisting. Then we should expect DNA testing to become mandatory - to identify markers that might make one susceptible to a condition (like mixed heritage) be deemed "preexisting". It will start with food stamps and TANF, then unemployment, Medicaid, Medicare, social security... We're all "high risk" yanno...
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#301109 - 05/07/17 03:42 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
Really, there is no illness that is not a preexisting condition. There are accidents like getting hit by lightning, but even for something like a heart attack insurance companies can say being overweight or genetically predisposed to heart problems is a preexisting condition after the fact. This is all underwriting: The practice of denying claims by selecting people to exclude from the pool.

But there is no line! No rule that says X is preexisting and Y is not. Insurance companies can devise what ever rules they like so they never have to pay anything. If you open the door a crack, they will slam it open and our health insurance will be worthless. (Eventually, even Republican Congressmen's health insurance will be worthless!)

This is why preexisting coverage is so vital: It doesn't just protect sick people now. It protects everybody who ever gets sick in the future. And considering that we all eventually get sick and die, that is ALL of us.

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#301111 - 05/07/17 06:19 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12445
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Considering that the House and Senate go Democratic in 2018, and then the Presidency in 2020, I wouldn't worry about Medicare going away too much. Republicans have pretty much signed their political death warrants. Looking forward to billboards like: "Daryl Issa just voted to murder you."

In some Red States as many as 33% of the population has some sort of preexisting condition! Tell me they're not going to be pissed off when their health insurance goes up by 10 times. Republicans think the non-sick will be so happy with their cheaper crappy insurance policies, they can do without the votes of the sick. But the numbers don't work.

It's just in their DNA: Every time they get to hold the gun, they promptly shoot themselves in the foot. About 100 days this time.


We are six states away from a Constitutional convention, and rest assured, the Mercers and Kochs will write that new document, so I wouldn't be so sure about your rosy predictions for 2018 and 2020 just yet. We are also one manufactured national emergency away from all of it just being shut off altogether.

Hyperbole? Maybe, but maybe not.
Let's see what happens when all those 5-4 SCOTUS decisions start rolling in.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#301112 - 05/07/17 01:01 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6021
Loc: Highlands, Tx
the free market is not only sentient but has the best interests of the people it is frakking at heart .... there is nothing to worry about
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#301113 - 05/07/17 03:06 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15179
If a Republican gets to name ANOTHER SCOTUS nominee, we are screwed for our lifetimes.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#301136 - 05/08/17 05:57 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1591
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
A special thanks, especially to Irked and rporter314 for setting our hearts free from worry. Its good to know the truth.

I should add that there is no healthcare free market. Instead is a market in lockstep with itself and, understand that people will spend anything to get all this great American health care, continue to raise their prices until they find a downturn in customers. Truly inspiring. I guess its a good thing that we have a healthcare system based on for profit capitalism instead of the rest of the industrialized world who understand healthcare is a social need, like police and firemen.

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#301137 - 05/08/17 06:05 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40131
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: jgw
A special thanks, especially to Irked and rporter314 for setting our hearts free from worry. Its good to know the truth.

I should add that there is no healthcare free market. Instead is a market in lockstep with itself and, understand that people will spend anything to get all this great American health care, continue to raise their prices until they find a downturn in customers. Truly inspiring. I guess its a good thing that we have a healthcare system based on for profit capitalism instead of the rest of the industrialized world who understand healthcare is a social need, like police and firemen.

Profit motive is the crux of the problem for American healthcare: You can't have life and death pitted against the motive profit.
_________________________
Contrarian, extraordinaire



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#301139 - 05/08/17 06:59 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
You can't have life and death pitted against the motive profit.


Actually, you can. And that's exactly why we spend so much more of our GDP on healthcare than any other country. I think the phrase you wanted is: You shouldn't have life and death pitted against the profit motive.

It's like paying the firemen a bribe so they put out your house fire.

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#301147 - 05/09/17 05:05 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1591
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
We spend more money because we allow the greedy to have at us through our elected. Its really that simple. I have yet to hear a single elected, on the left, say that its a social responsibility and not a for profit center for the greedy and stupid.

I also believe, if the Republicans get their way, and Trump signs it into law, that there is a good chance that the left can take over congress in 2018. If that happened I see absolutely no reason why Trump can't get impeached. If that happens then he is gone. It would be, I also think, a good thing to remove a president who has no real point of view, believes conspiracies, made the office to improve his own bottom line, lies and, generally, so far, is a really bad president. Its unfortunate that some poor, unhealthy, citizens will probably die as all this takes place. Hopefully the death count will not be high.

On the positive side it appears as if the Democrats are actually starting to fight back with ads in red states. Good for them! (its really about time).


Edited by jgw (05/09/17 06:04 PM)

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#301151 - 05/09/17 07:29 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
It takes a 2/3 majority to convict in the Senate. I doubt there will ever be 2/3 Democrats in the Senate, so it's going to require a lot of Republican support to convict him. This is why I keep saying he has to make Republicans think they are likely to lose their jobs if he stays.

If ACHA passes and thousands of people start dying and going bankrupt, and the parents of dead kids start showing up in DC to kill their congressmen, that just might do it...

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#301164 - 05/10/17 02:24 AM Re: healthcare a [Re: pondering_it_all]
Irked Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3447
Loc: Somewhere out in left field
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It's like paying the firemen a bribe so they put out your house fire.

I have a slight edit to your analogy: "It's like paying the firemen a bribe so they put out won't set your house on fire."

(But Hey! Don't worry. They'll put it out. There just might be a wee bit of damage done before the whole fire is out and the trucks have returned to the station.)
_________________________
How eager they are to be slaves - Tiberius Caesar

Coulda tripped out easy, but I've changed my ways - Donovan

I consider myself to be a laid back type and quite tolerant on most issues - AB Breivik

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#301191 - 05/11/17 10:21 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1591
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I think that one of southern states passed a law about having to pay a charge of some sort for fire protection. If you didn't pay they did not put out your house on fire and, if the neighbor's house was threatened, and they paid, then they would get served, otherwise they burn down too. This was several years ago and was in the news and then went away. I have no idea what happened but, I suspect, they got ride of that one.

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#301205 - 05/13/17 08:26 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12445
Loc: Whittier, California
You may get a bill anyway, even if your home DOES burn to the ground.
And there is a chance that you may not even KNOW if your area requires you to pay a fire protection fee. AZ Family Charged Nearly $20,000 After Home Burns Down

Quote:
The Purcells claim they would have paid for the subscription had they known it existed.

“We would have paid it in a heartbeat,” Kasia Purcell said. “We never received a letter from them.”

Williams said the family elected not to subscribe.


I guess it is open to interpretation. The family says that they didn't know about it, fire chief thinks they rolled the dice.

The "Rural Metro" (a contradiction in terms) Fire Dept acknowledges that they "did not market subscriptions in that area until recently."

How quaint, to call it a "subscription"...like it's a magazine.
Sounds similar to the way health insurance will be marketed in the future. Insurance co neglects to inform people that they must pay an additional subscription fee, then denies coverage when they get sick or injured.

Cute.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#301207 - 05/13/17 11:55 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
I got my fire district protection bill yesterday in the mail. It's $120 per year.

At $20,000 I would just put in lots of sprinklers, a water cistern, and a pump, and tell the fire district to go piss up a rope. Or build a fire-proof house to begin with.

Sounds like they have a good case for a trespassing lawsuit. That private fire company came on their property with out a subscription (or any business relationship with the homeowners) or an invitation. I think the homeowners should go to court.

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#301216 - 05/14/17 10:32 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6595
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
In Tennessee, one woman was so angry at a lawmaker’s vote in favor of the health care bill that she tried to run him off the road, according to police.


Woman Allegedly Tries to Run GOP Lawmaker Off Road Over Health Care Vote

Okay, that's 1 attempt, zero dead. Shall we start a pool?

Voting to destroy millions of people's health coverage is bound to rile some folks up. And voting to make sure crazy people can get guns has got to be the most self-destructive two pieces of legislation any Congress has ever passed.

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#301224 - 05/15/17 08:57 PM Re: healthcare a [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1591
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
I am truly gobsmacked. I thought that fire thing happened and then went away - I guess not. I guess this is one for the Libertarians. So, you can be independent, not get taxed, and all you are risking is your house burning down? A REALLY good deal!!

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