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#301235 - 05/16/17 06:10 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6191
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
Social Security, it is supposed to be a trust fund. It has been raided and mismanaged, it is a slush fund for Congress and will eventually fail.

Your belief is a common misconception among conservatives. so I recommend you read up on it.

Quote:
Schools/Education; a necessity and a national priority. More focus on the sciences would probably be a wiser use of funds, and teachers who teach and not preach, both on the left and the right.

That is a strange statement. You want better education and then criticize teachers for trying to instill critical thinking. I have been to the vessels of higher knowledge in the 60's, 80's, and 90's and have yet to find a preacher, however I can point out many in Congress.

Quote:
Medicare was supposed to take care of retirees, it has been corrupted.

I plead ignorance. How has it been corrupted?

Quote:
Trade in America is practiced in cities and towns along those roads and without them the taxes that are collected would not exist. Roads and bridges should pay for themselves.

Really? I know you do not believe once a road is built there will be no maintainence.

From a historical perspective, you should read early American county records. Roads were surveyed and built for the benefit of the free market. All were built with free local labor and maintained the same way.

Or maybe you have a private toll road system? There were toll roads in early America but for the most part counties opted for local free enterprise.

Quote:
Fire and police have been around long before unions and the political power that has corrupted them.

Power works both ways. Those in power abuse it just as those who want it. It is naive to think firemen and policemen would have better working conditions without unions or to believe workers wages and working conditions would have risen above poverty levels or had decent working conditions without unions. They have served a real purpose for those who "work".

Quote:
Life in America is pretty cut and dried. There is the left who pander to the fringe of society and the right who pander to the great unwashed.

Neither side has America’s best interests at heart, they all have an angle to play so they can get rich and powerful.

Why is equality not in America's best interest? It is not only in it's best interest, it is front and center what America is all about.

Quote:
Trump got elected because he was not part of that crowd. I am not a Donald guy, much to the outrage of many of my friends. He is too reactionary, too quick to respond, too quick to take offense. He should be better than what he has shown, but maybe he is playing everybody for the fools that we are?

He is a narcissist. He can not think about playing people for fools since that is outside his mental capability i.e. everything is about him. not you or me. Certainly the people who voted for him, the people who brought him to power would be foolish.

Either way, he has appointed one justice, and there is an outside chance that he could appoint 1, 2 or 3 more. It is SCOUS that makes the difference in America.

He really did not appoint anyone to SC. When the Senate bends the rules to ensure a vote, is that really getting an appointment through? He could have nominated a reasonable person which would have had bipartisan support, but in a country frozen in partisanship, we will have nominees more extreme than the last one, until they approve of Mr trump anointing himself emperor of America.

Quote:
Congress is just a bunch of hucksters who are playing their angle and getting rich off of the backs of their constituencies.

I guess you mean like Rep Price. The problem is people with high profiles will always be approached by people with money, but it applies regardless if one is public or private.

Quote:
As long as he doesn’t blow up the world, then he is worth the investment.

Based on your conclusion, I will conclude you would vote for a ham sandwich, as long as it doesn't blow up the world.

Mr Trump has demonstrated he is a terrible boss. He is incompetent and has no conception of the qualities it takes for people to be good in government. He surrounded himself with people who have at the very least been in situations which compromise their integrity and yet he does not recognize it. He does not comprehend the nature of national security except his own bigotry. He sold out his promise of better HC for America by selling it out to right wing extremists who would rather deconstruct government than actually do something for America. I can go on, so what investment are you waiting on?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#301236 - 05/16/17 07:53 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7004
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
Social Security, it is supposed to be a trust fund. It has been raided and mismanaged, it is a slush fund for Congress


Standard myth of the right, with zero basis in reality. The reason they claim it is that excess Social Security Trust Fund money is all invested in US T-Bills, but a special kind that can be redeemed at any time. They get the prevailing interest rate at the time they are purchased. This is the safest investment in the world because it is backed by the authority of the US to collect taxes, tariffs, etc.

When T-Bills are purchased, the money goes into the general fund from which the government pays for everything. THAT'S why they claim it has been raided. But the Social Security Administration still has those T-Bills, which they cash in when they need money.

If all T-Bills were worthless because the US went broke and couldn't collect any taxes, the lack of Social Security checks would be the least of our problems. Short of WW III, never going to happen.

I am curious: What do these "Social Security Raided" folks think Social Security should do with excess money? Keep it in a bank account (to earn 0.1% interest)? Keep it under the mattress (to earn 0% interest)? Those investments lose to inflation. Put it in the stock market? Very risky.

People all over the world buy US T-Bills because they have a decent return with a tiny tiny risk.

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#301246 - 05/17/17 05:31 AM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: Ma_Republican]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15468
We all like to believe we are "typical Americans." It is more true for some of us than for others. Trump, too, thinks this (apparently). But the reality is that conservatism represents only about 22% of American views (although 36% self-identify as "conservative" - ironic, no?). Yet strident conservatism is vastly overrepresented in legislatures around the country, most especially in Washington. And the reason is because the system is broken.

It is not "fate" that brought Trump to the White House, but craven and short-sighted party members. It goes to prove that nearly to a person they will vote along party linesregardless of qualification or consequence.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#301247 - 05/17/17 11:16 AM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: Ma_Republican]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15468
Originally Posted By: Ma_Republican
My vote was wasted here in the Peoples republic of Massachusetts,
Issue one: why was it wasted? Winner-take-all. Had there been proportional delegate distribution, your vote would have "counted" even as the minority. Three million Democratic voters feel your pain - their votes didn't "count" because of the electoral college and winner-take-all delegate distribution by the States.

Quote:
I will bet my reasoning follows along with many right leaning voters; Hillary could not be allowed to appoint a Supreme Court Justice. Hillary was actually fairly business friendly. and while she used the you tube video Innocence of Muslims, that just proved that she had no honor and that she would fit in in Washington.
How utterly tribal of you. Those arguments are entirely tribal in nature, and are exactly the defect I described. First, the "choice" is reduced to a single issue, "us" or "them". The Supreme Court has become a "tribal" institution Because of this very attitude. The Republican Senate abdicated its Constitutional responsibility to pursue its tribal interests - not the interests of the American people. Second, you felt the need to denigrate the "not my tribe" candidate with specious claims that only exist within your tribe's world. "Your team sucks!" That's hardly a "rational" argument.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#301248 - 05/17/17 04:35 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: NW Ponderer]
Ma_Republican Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6440
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer

Quote:
I will bet my reasoning follows along with many right leaning voters; Hillary could not be allowed to appoint a Supreme Court Justice. Hillary was actually fairly business friendly. and while she used the you tube video Innocence of Muslims, that just proved that she had no honor and that she would fit in in Washington.
How utterly tribal of you. Those arguments are entirely tribal in nature, and are exactly the defect I described. First, the "choice" is reduced to a single issue, "us" or "them". The Supreme Court has become a "tribal" institution Because of this very attitude. The Republican Senate abdicated its Constitutional responsibility to pursue its tribal interests - not the interests of the American people. Second, you felt the need to denigrate the "not my tribe" candidate with specious claims that only exist within your tribe's world. "Your team sucks!" That's hardly a "rational" argument.


Whether you like the idea or not, there are only two tribes in America, and everybody fits inside them. I did not denigrate your tribe, I equate being a politician as one of the basest forms of employment in America. There is very little good said about them, and they don't even deserve that. I want government out of my life as much as possible, you don't. I want small government with the power centered in the states, you don't. Both sides of the arguments have merit, we just picked different sides. My argument isn't that your side sucks, my argument is that both sides suck, but I keep more money in my wallet if my side wins.

The Supreme Court was always the fight in the last election. The President has very little real power, he can shape discussion, he can champion one side of the debate, but he can't introduce and he can't vote on legislation. Only SCOTUS can decide the fate of legislation that has been passed and signed into law. Only SCOTUS can interpret how a law should be implemented and only SCOTUS can make a real difference after the fact.

It isn't as complicated as people like to make it seem. SCOTUS usually gets it right, but not always, and SCOTUS has only their self-imposed politics to deal with. It is the most important privilege of the President. Donald Trump is a dope. He isn't ready for the job and probably never will be, but he gets to choose the next Justice, maybe even the one after that. As I have said, as long as he doesn't blow up the world, having him choose the next Justice is worth the risk.

Tim


Edited by Ma_Republican (05/17/17 04:38 PM)
_________________________
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas Jefferson

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#301249 - 05/17/17 05:49 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: Ma_Republican]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6191
Loc: Highlands, Tx
i am a goose as you continue to amaze me with your beliefs

Quote:
I want government out of my life as much as possible, you don't.

generically you mean conservatives v. liberals. so here is a clue ... as a liberal i also want government out of my life and the reality is 95% of all people globally do not want government in their lives because people just want to live their lives ... the other 5% are nuts

the best i can tell only conservatives want to interfere in my life. liberals always want to give people choices.

Quote:
I want small government with the power centered in the states, you don't

i prefer city state government. why are you for big government???? conservatives always confuse small government and limited government. the Constitution created limited government. It does not constrain it by size. It does constrain its power.

What is the essential difference between state government and federal government? the answer is there is no difference, so I fail to understand your position. It is like saying you only like the twinkie on the right side of the package and not the one on the left.

Quote:
The Supreme Court was always the fight in the last election

the wall ... Muslim ban .... bigger military ... etc. The SC was low on the list. The people who you said were not interested in government in their lives don't give a ratzazz about what the SC decides.

The people who supported Mr Trump only care about getting coal mining jobs, deporting non-whites and Muslims, legalized discrimination, and making rich people richer.

This what a more conservative SC will do for you personally. It will allow you to buy a gun if you are placed on the terrorist watch list, or if you have a mental breakdown (or are otherwise irresponsible so as to be danger to the pubic). They will guarantee in general legalized discrimination. They will approve of the disenfranchisement of groups of people generally based on color, ethnicity, religion or sex preference. They will guarantee big business and the wealthy have a better chance of making and keeping money to the detriment of middle class and poor folks. Etc. Trump supporters are in general incapable of following to the logical conclusion what their beliefs would result in, however those who proposed the SC as the primary issue wanted guarantees of Uzis for every new born, no abortions, and ensuring the transfer of wealth to the wealthy continues. Ultimately they want indoctrinated bots who will support oligarchs as democratic leaders. Thanks but no thanks.

My question is why do you think those are goods things looking through the lens of the Constitution????
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#301250 - 05/17/17 05:50 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: Ma_Republican]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7004
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
as long as he doesn't blow up the world, having him choose the next Justice is worth the risk


There is a huge unwarranted assumption in there. From his observed behavior, there is no reason to think he won't blow up the world. He is maybe the most impulsive and uninformed President in the history of the republic. Making this choice (Supreme Court vs world blowing up) is proof that the Republican party is filled with sociopaths.

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#301251 - 05/17/17 07:55 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: Ma_Republican]
Greger Online   content

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13804
Loc: Florida
Quote:
I keep more money in my wallet if my side wins.


And that right there is the crux of the biscuit. We can talk all day long about Muslim bans, anti-Mexican walls, the gay agenda, and how blue lives matter and black lives don't. But it all comes down to taxes. Your side doesn't want to pay them. My side doesn't mind them because with higher taxes come better services. For everyone.
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#301258 - 05/18/17 06:43 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: NW Ponderer]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1691
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
First, his supporters. I believe, that for the most part, they are people who have lost their jobs to automation. They seem to be between approximately 35 to 55 and its unlikely they will ever work again and simply do not understand what is happening. I am also convinced that there are going to be LOT more of them in the future unless gov starts to work on the problem right now. There are also another group of Trump supporters who apparently want to return to the 50's & 60's. These are just people yearning for the good old days when they were young and everything was right with the world.

I also believe that its unlikely that he will make it through his entire term. I think that there is, now (finally), an acceptance that the man is simply incompetent in the job and is unable to accept anybody's advice and his current path can create huge problems for us all unless he is stopped. With the special council now onboard its gonna get real interesting. Should probably goto predictit and invest a bit on his downfall.

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#301259 - 05/18/17 09:36 PM Re: How is Trump President?! [Re: NW Ponderer]
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 310
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I remember several threads dominated by our curmudgeonly friend. I also remember the frustration of the time trying to address how we should remedy the alleged defects....

This election was a prime example. Neither party "stood for" things in a way that the populace accepted so an unrepresentative demagogue was able to step in and usurp the machinery. The Russian-Trump connection is strong because neither represented the interests of the nation (neither still do).

Bulwarks need to be erected to prevent a recurrence, but one has to be careful not to damage the substructure and foundations in the process.

Well, there is still a year left for you to agree with "your curmudgeonly friend."

It seems to me obvious that the "substructure and foundations" are already fatally damaged.
.
_________________________
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans

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