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#303485 - 10/17/17 01:14 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8773
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
Interesting extension of the Universal Basic Income concept to Universal Basic Assets.
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#303491 - 10/17/17 05:10 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15921
I think this is an excellent concept. In the future we need to find a way to have all Americans share in the economic prosperity of the nation. The article points out the problem we face, and it includes the poor state of education in the country.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#305984 - 03/14/18 03:45 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15921
Here's how much you need to earn to be part of the 1 percent - CNBC. In contrast, poverty guidelines. I got on this topic because I i helped my son with his taxes last night. He has a $15.00/ hour job for less than 40 hours a week. He's at the 31st percentile. What Percent are you? - WSJ. That shocked me. 31 percent of the US population earns less than $25,000 a year?! That's the poverty line for a family of 3. One third of the nation? We're worse off than I thought.

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#305988 - 03/14/18 08:10 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 760
Yeah, I was really looking forward to one of them ladders of opportunity.
So far as I can tell the last great lift of progress in this country stalled out with the death of FDR and his "Economic Bill Of Rights' and the long slow sidelining of the progressive left since then. Perhaps revived for a bit with star crossed LBJ (A big FDR fan I believe).

Boomers really gave the show away with their voting preferences since 1980 and the election of Reagan. A long slow grind downward sold as freedom by a group of pimps, grifters and real estate whores selling snake oil to mostly white middle age men and their wives all to eager to be lied to.

Wasn't it LBJ who said something about being able to get poor white mens vote by telling them their better than a black man. They'll empty their pockets to hear you say it...

Something like that.


Edited by chunkstyle (03/14/18 08:11 PM)

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#305989 - 03/14/18 09:35 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13084
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle

Boomers really gave the show away with their voting preferences since 1980 and the election of Reagan. A long slow grind downward sold as freedom by a group of pimps, grifters and real estate whores selling snake oil to mostly white middle age men and their wives all to eager to be lied to.


WORD.
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"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#306005 - 03/15/18 12:57 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 760
The rise of the precariot class is no joke. Welcome to the gig economy NWP. All work and no play makes johnny an angry populist. There's them that has it. Really really has it. Them that think they do until the next bubble bursts, and thems that knows they will never have it. That last group's getting larger and larger all the time and they got nothing to lose. I'm guessing a hard right or a hard left turn is on the horizon.
The new social classes defined


Edited by chunkstyle (03/15/18 01:16 PM)

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#306008 - 03/15/18 08:04 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 760

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#306018 - 03/16/18 04:57 AM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: chunkstyle]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13084
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle


That's why I keep insisting that Sanders is simply an FDR New Deal liberal Democrat, not some kind of "socialist'...no matter how strenuously he insists that he is.

I still think that Bernie has some kind of nostalgic and romantic or sentimental attachment to the label, but not much more than that.
_________________________
"The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."

----Leon Russell - "Magic Mirror"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg

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#306022 - 03/16/18 01:25 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 760
"solutions to economic inequality need to address more equal access to primary assets that generate better economic and social outcomes."

So is it fair to say that we refined the "workers need to control the means of production"?
Dunno Logtroll. I like these ideas better than the UBI idea. A fear of the UBI is that it could stall out there, in what would be a sweet spot for the libertarian grift. It could serve to further undermine what's left of the public space created before the boomer dismantling and voucherise the last of public government. A society further reduced and organized around goods and services to be boughten instead of garunteed thru collective agreement. I do like and agree with the concept of a universal basic asset and would rather see the conversation move directly to that and avoid the UBI voucher trap.
I think that's a modern analog to FDR's proposal. Sadly he had run out of time to try and institute this reform idea and a more receptive populace to accept those ideas. The current dominating cohort of voters in power are white boomers. I don't think these ideas will find much traction within that demographic. I could see the younger generation that's getting screwed resonate with them though.


Edited by chunkstyle (03/16/18 01:29 PM)

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#306023 - 03/16/18 01:54 PM Re: The Hoarding of the American Dream [Re: chunkstyle]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8773
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
It could be that we need to dig really deep and identify the "genetic" cultural influences beneath American attitudes and behavior. Thinking about how American culture compares to, say, European culture, we still seem to be motivated at the root level by greed, expansionism, and competition, perhaps remaining from the white people's settlement of the U.S., and not by accepting that we need to live and work together.

"I gotta get mine while the gettin's good." That psychology does not integrate well with a culture of working together for mutual benefit - in fact, it is a corrupting influence on more socialist strategies. As you pointed out, the UBI is likely to be corrupted by "libertarian grift". However, pushing for a UBI or other "socialist" action may move the culture a little bit in the right direction, even if it's not completely successful.

If that is the basic problem, a cultural psychopathy of greed and grabbing, then what is the solution? How do we change a culture that is so deeply embedded that it is blasphemy to even discuss it? I don't think there is a step by step solution, it's just got to be eroded over a long period of time, probably with moments of lurching forward on the momentum of one disaster or another (Great Depression, peak oil, climate change, school shootings, etc.)

Not very happy and optimistic, I'll admit. But, you can't solve a problem until you understand what the problem is...
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