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#301737 - 06/18/17 08:33 AM Re: The truth - finally [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6832
Loc: North San Diego County
Yes, you snorted your retirement up your nose. Your choice. But people don't have to make all the bad choices you made.

Kids who avoid the drugs and thuggery can go to college, even if they are Black or Brown. They can do it on nothing by starting out at Community College while working a crap job, getting good enough grades to transfer into a state college and get that degree in something with real job prospects. Or they can train for a trade and go into that through an apprentice program. We can't export plumbing or electrician jobs! They can't easily be automated either. Either way, they can have a great life without being a victim of the super-rich.

I believe in America. Sorry if my lack of cynicism offends you. I know all the George Carlin and Mencken quotes sound like the one quoting them is in the know and thus superior to the rest of us fools. But you know: They were comedians, not philosophers.

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#301752 - 06/18/17 05:44 PM Re: The truth - finally [Re: pondering_it_all]
Greger Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 13772
Loc: Florida
I'm mostly with you on this PIA, and believe this Trump thing will pass and America may be a better place for it. Jeffery loves to immerse himself in worse case scenarios while you and I look for silver linings in every cloud.
Republicans may be on a path that will destroy the America we know utterly. But I'm of the opinion that they will destroy themselves first.
The very wealthy cannot live without a support system. They need products and labor supplied by the rest of the world.

Somewhat apropos to this thread...

Why We Build The Wall
_________________________
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken."— Oscar Wilde

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#301753 - 06/18/17 07:52 PM Re: The truth - finally [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12565
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Yes, you snorted your retirement up your nose. Your choice. But people don't have to make all the bad choices you made.


Almost twenty-two years ago. Thankfully I've managed to recover, both from a sobriety and financial point of view.
Fairly good chance I won't be eating cat food.

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

Kids who avoid the drugs and thuggery can go to college, even if they are Black or Brown. They can do it on nothing by starting out at Community College while working a crap job, getting good enough grades to transfer into a state college and get that degree in something with real job prospects. Or they can train for a trade and go into that through an apprentice program. We can't export plumbing or electrician jobs! They can't easily be automated either. Either way, they can have a great life without being a victim of the super-rich.


I get that, but an America with an oversupply of plumbers and electricians isn't going to solve our root problems.
We still face technological unemployment even if a few hundred thousand kids (or even a million) manage to get into the trades.
The tens of millions made redundant won't be able to afford to hire plumbers and electricians.

Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all

I believe in America. Sorry if my lack of cynicism offends you. I know all the George Carlin and Mencken quotes sound like the one quoting them is in the know and thus superior to the rest of us fools. But you know: They were comedians, not philosophers.


Nice indignation ploy but it's not working with me.
It's not that I don't believe in America, or don't believe in the idea and ideals of America.
It's the gnawing problem of the top few greedy sumbitches who are desperately trying to "saw off the last rungs of the social contract ladders" who appear to be winning this latest round. They think that they are doing God's work but they're working for Mammon, and their "work" IS going to negatively affect an entire generation, especially the most vulnerable, those kids who don't get born into luck, comfort and privilege...those kids who can't get enough to eat as kindergartners.

Betsy deVos and Mo Brooks don't WANT TO allow "ambitious poor people to earn a leg up against the backdrop of the social protections envisioned by the all but dead New Deal... protections that even included public education."

Alas, people like them think that being born poor means those kids made bad choices, possibly worse choices than the ones you think I made.
At least I did get a second chance, and I've had twenty-two years to think about my bad choices.

What happens to the most vulnerable among us who don't even get that first chance? Do you really think all of the hungry elementary school kids agree with you that there is no poverty in America because the poor have refrigerators?

And dissing comedians as having worthless viewpoints is the last refuge of the fearful. Come on, you're better than that because you know Carlin was much more than a comedian.

In a nation where authoritarian fascism is blooming, it's perhaps the comedians who manage to have the last stranglehold on certain elements of "the truth", at least before they themselves are "officially silenced".
Oh wait, we don't do that to comedians here in America.
Instead we get to watch professionals destroy their reputation because as we learned from Nixon, that's the easier and less messy way to silence a pundit that they don't like.
Even Nixon's team thought assassination was too messy, otherwise G. Gordon Liddy actually WOULD have killed WaPo's Jack Anderson.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#301754 - 06/18/17 07:59 PM Re: The truth - finally [Re: Greger]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12565
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: Greger

The very wealthy cannot live without a support system. They need products and labor supplied by the rest of the world.

Somewhat apropos to this thread...

Why We Build The Wall


The very wealthy GET TO HAVE that support system.
In the olden days it was the plantation, with a never ending supply of disposable slaves. In the twenty-first century it's the school-to-prison pipeline, the gated Koch style communities with their praetorian guards and the outsourced manufacturing empire, all protected by privatized law enforcement.
And in the coming years, our budding militias will be folded into a mechanism that uses them to keep scaring the crap out of the working class and making the dissenters disappear.

That's the Latin American model!
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#301755 - 06/18/17 08:38 PM Re: The truth - finally [Re: Greger]
matthew Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 277
Originally Posted By: Greger
I'm mostly with you on this PIA, and believe this Trump thing will pass and America may be a better place for it. Jeffery loves to immerse himself in worse case scenarios while you and I look for silver linings in every cloud.
Republicans may be on a path that will destroy the America we know utterly. But I'm of the opinion that they will destroy themselves first.
The very wealthy cannot live without a support system. They need products and labor supplied by the rest of the world.

As soon as the oligarchs can do without their human cattle, they will figure out a way to get rid of them. Just look at what they are already doing all over the world.

Thinking that the USA is salvageable requires a deliberate blindness to history. Ever since World War II, the USA has consistently become ever more militarized, ever more unequal, ever more in the grip of the oligarchs and their dependent Deep State. Only external events (i.e. environmental catastrophe) can influence the onward force of historical momentum.
.
_________________________
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of Americans

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#301762 - 06/19/17 01:00 AM Re: The truth - finally [Re: matthew]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12565
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: matthew

As soon as the oligarchs can do without their human cattle, they will figure out a way to get rid of them. Just look at what they are already doing all over the world.


That's not to say that I think that they will be successful, but I agree with Matthew because of the overwhelming HUBRIS FACTOR.
These are people who casually throw around phrases like "smartest guy in the room" and "masters of the universe" as if it automatically applies to them because of lucky family tree association, privilege, dumb luck or temporary access to raw power.
These are people for whom phrases like "Going Galt" are treated like Gospel from The Almighty Himself.
I am convinced that they will try their damndest because they believe in things like "peaceful ethnic cleansing" even though there isn't a single instance of the "peaceful" type in all recorded history.
These are people who love Karl Rove's famous assertion:

Quote:
"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."


And for the more religious among them, there's the classic Dominionist trope about the "Great transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous."
HINT: They are the righteous, and you, "all of you" are the "WICKED" and for the Dominionists, state sanctioned wailing and gnashing of teeth gives them such a hard-on that they willingly marry twelve year olds with permission from friendly judges if they have to in order to assert their dominance.
PRO-TIP: Note the connection between "dominionist" and "dominance" and follow the money trail. These people rely on folks that they refer to as "God's Bankers".

Originally Posted By: matthew

Thinking that the USA is salvageable requires a deliberate blindness to history. Ever since World War II, the USA has consistently become ever more militarized, ever more unequal, ever more in the grip of the oligarchs and their dependent Deep State. Only external events (i.e. environmental catastrophe) can influence the onward force of historical momentum.
.


I don't think that the Great Swell of inequality and militarization courtesy of the oligarchs and Deep State happened in earnest until after 1980. The clarion call for it to happen was issued in 1971 with The Powell Memo, to be sure, but it took until 1980 for them to have the head of steam to get started.

The period in between WW2 and 1980 was the postwar economic boom and I assure you that despite significant social and environmental sins, most of the working class was in a better position than they are now.
Never forget that even a minimum wage job back then could keep a roof over one's head. It might have been a paltry roof but I remember being able to afford a 110 dollar a month efficiency apartment on a 375 dollar a month salary back in late 1977. I even had a pickup truck and a phone fer chrissakes.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#301765 - 06/19/17 03:31 AM Re: The truth - finally [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6832
Loc: North San Diego County
All this assumes that the march of history is a steady decline into authoritarianism from this point on. We shall see. Personally, I think Trump will be impeached after doing irreparable damage to the Republican Party.

Following that debacle Democrats will rule for quite some time, and then you might be more optimistic.

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#301769 - 06/19/17 04:08 AM Re: The truth - finally [Re: pondering_it_all]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12565
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
All this assumes that the march of history is a steady decline into authoritarianism from this point on. We shall see. Personally, I think Trump will be impeached after doing irreparable damage to the Republican Party.

Following that debacle Democrats will rule for quite some time, and then you might be more optimistic.


It's not that I dispute your conventional wisdom on this.
It's that I no longer trust the conventional wisdom on much of anything where Polly Ticks is concerned.

No one, and I do mean NO ONE, could have convinced me in June 2016 that Trump was going to actually be President. I was sure he would bow out of the race by August, or be soundly beaten by then.

It's Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine wearing me down, PIA.
I just don't even know what to expect anymore.
I've been conditioned to expect pure and total chaos.
_________________________
The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#301771 - 06/19/17 04:14 AM Re: The truth - finally [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pondering_it_all Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6832
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
No one, and I do mean NO ONE, could have convinced me in June 2016 that Trump was going to actually be President. I was sure he would bow out of the race by August, or be soundly beaten by then.


It would have been far better for him and his family if he had lost! He will probably end up a pariah if not dead, and his son-in-law could end up with jail time. But he'll have plenty of company in there, based on Watergate.

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#301790 - 06/20/17 05:01 AM Re: The truth - finally [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1632
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Interesting stuff. I am, however, a bit confused. Evidently the result is some kind of actual belief that the rich, actively or passively, are destroying the nation. Some, whilst leaning in that direction believe that we will destroy this evil and things will work out. My own thought was much more simple. Basically, our media is wrecking the country because their bottom line is more important than their capacity to understand what they are doing and accept responsibility for same.

I can remember and instance, during the last election, when the head of one of the networks, said something to the effect that covering Trump was making them money hand over fist as the American public could not get enough of him. I think we all know the result of their coverage sometimes referred to as a 5 billion dollar free exposure of the lying jackass which the American public couldn't get enough of. There was never, as far as I can see, any concern that this free exposure, and the degree to which they were/are responsible for the outcome of the election itself. I have found it even more interesting that, now, that same exposure is occurring, by exactly the same media players, under the guise of "news' which is, obviously, pure bunkum. Now, however, in their lust and greed to feed their bottom line they have actually managed to (evidently) convince the public that real news no longer involves itself with fact and truth but, rather, claims, counter claims, speculation, and prognostication. They have, obviously, left out witchcraft and magic so far but I am sure even that is under consideration. This, apparently, is what the public 'demands' and media has been quite willing to comply with that demand with more and more b*ll**it.

At the same time we continue with our 2 party system. ANYBODY can simply run for office, under either party banner and the party in question welcomes the candidate with enthusiasm. This, of course, means that the current crop of candidates, in either party, need not accept any requirements by said political parties. So, when media says; "Democratic", "Republican", left, right, conservative, liberal, the whole basket, are now matters of personal belief. Now, couple all that with the simple fact that BOTH parties have done a great job scaring the crap out of any who buy into their political cant. The right tell us them damned strangers, and wrong thinkers, are destroying everything. The left, on the other hand, tell us that the titular leader of the right, Trumph, the Liar in Chief, is Hitler reborn and, if not stopped immediately, by ANY means, will destroy everything.

So, we have the media dumping huge amounts of baloney on a believing public (perception is much more believable than fact). In addition we have a 2 party system wherein the parties themselves represent nothing and their candidates may, or may not, be and believe what they say. The really scary thing is that much of the public have bought one side or another and may, or may not, be sane.

My suspicion is that when the member of the left picked up his gun and started shooting there was a member of the right thinking that was a pretty good idea and that it was time go to work for his beliefs as well. There is a warning that I was given about dogs when I was young. If you think a dog is scared get as far away from him has you can as they can be dangerous. I fear the same applies to scared people. I also suspect, unfortunately, a reaping may well be in our future.

Interesting times?


Edited by jgw (06/20/17 05:02 AM)

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