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#302239 - 07/12/17 01:03 PM What are the climate change deniers scared of?
logtroll Offline
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It's pretty clear what the climate change skairdy-cats are afraid of - global environmental collapse.

But what are the deniers afraid of, that makes them so belligerently resistant to taking any action that can be construed as responsive to stopping or reversing climate change?
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#302249 - 07/12/17 03:12 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Registered: 10/16/16
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A loss of profits?
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Vote 2018

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The older you get, the moldery and crustier you get.

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#302255 - 07/12/17 05:04 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
bigswede Offline
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Registered: 03/25/16
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I wouldn't know, since I don't know any climate deniers. I've only heard of them when climate threat advocates raise their straw men.
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#302269 - 07/12/17 06:12 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
if there is an in depth discussion it becomes apparent, deniers are ideologically intractable conservatives who fear the impact of global responsibility of US corporations, or in other words, they fear there will be an impact to the bottom line.

I have numerous times posed the question, suppose it cost nothing or even made money to increase greenhouse gas abatement projects, would conservatives be against it? Not so surprisingly, they do not answer, because it exposes their true nature.

E eq M C sq

it is not political .... it is science

AGW

it is not political .... it is science
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#302272 - 07/12/17 06:34 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: rporter314]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: rporter314
...deniers are ideologically intractable conservatives who fear...

You...don't...say, rporter. smile , coffee

Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds
Psychology Today


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#302275 - 07/12/17 07:26 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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It really comes down to money. Up until this century, businesses have made money by externalizing costs. They can't get away with polluting the land anymore: Pit miners have to cover their pits with soil and plant trees. Loggers have to replant instead of leaving vast areas of devastation behind.

Until very recently, companies could dump anything they liked into the oceans, lakes, rivers, etc. The EPA fixed that, but now Trump is trying to undo that.

The atmosphere is the last refuge of corporate externalization. They pollute the air and we all breath it, and we all are exposed to the dangers. Because that's how their business model works. Sometimes the business model doesn't work if they can't externalize. (And that's what conservatives fear.)

For example, burning coal. Anything you do to turn the resulting CO2 back into carbon and sequester it, eats up all the gain you made from burning the coal. In fact, the Second Law of Thermodynamics says the entire process will be a loss. Maybe that's why coal sells for $30 a ton and clean dirt sells for $60 a ton! Coal is not an asset, it is a liability, cheaper than dirt and that is why coal mining jobs are never coming back. Not because coal prices are too low, but rather because it doesn't work if you can't leave great ash piles everywhere and CO2 in the air.

Make no mistake about it, burning natural gas has the same model, just much less ash. That's why natural gas is only a temporary fix, and not a very good one.

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#302276 - 07/12/17 07:30 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
It really comes down to money.

It's about money for the cheap and chintzy money-grubbing CONservative climate deniers?
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#302281 - 07/13/17 02:36 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
cheap and chintzy money-grubbing CONservative climate deniers


Well, also for economists concerned only with the short-term effects of not shitting where you eat. Because that's really what this is.

"I like to drop a deuce on the dinner table, because then I don't have to go all the way into the bathroom. I've been doing it for a long time, and all my friends do it too, therefore I should be able to continue."

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#302282 - 07/13/17 02:54 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: pondering_it_all]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Well, also for economists concerned only with the short-term effects of not shitting where you eat. Because that's really what this is.

"I like to drop a deuce on the dinner table, because then I don't have to go all the way into the bathroom. I've been doing it for a long time, and all my friends do it too, therefore I should be able to continue."

That seems to cut very close to the bone, imo.
_________________________
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#302284 - 07/13/17 04:02 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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bigswede, my friend, you are a climate change denier - the proof is in the discussion. You prefer to cast the majority climate scientists - who actually study the science - as charlatans and claim that those who disagree are creating straw men.

I appreciate not wanting to be labeled, but what you are doing is dressing up denial literature as if it were valid science. If you follow the science of it, you can discern the junk, but you have a preferred outcome, so only conforming "science" is valid - the other is "junk". Take, for example, the long discredited claim that data was "faked". It wasn't. If you'd followed the actual analysis, and discussion of the data,
you'd find that. But, as is apparent, you prefer a different result, so that's what you see. It's called confirmation bias. The problem with confirmation bias is that it is difficult to see from within its bubble.
_________________________
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#302285 - 07/13/17 06:21 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Like so many other conspiracy theories, climate change denial requires one to believe there is a VAST conspiracy of climate change "pushers" for some reason banding together to destroy the world's economy, all the while keeping it secret they are doing that even though it is all fabricated.

A secret shared among two people is no secret. Shared among thousands? Utterly impossible. That's why belief in it is so ridiculous.

Anybody who truly believes it is faked probably believes several other conspiracy theories. That describes my step-brother perfectly. so I am no stranger to it.
He's a perfectly nice fellow but has a bunch of paranoid fantasies. If you believe in several such theories, maybe you should get some psychiatric help. Some sufferers end up getting in lots of trouble, for example shooting up a pizza parlor.

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#302287 - 07/13/17 09:39 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: pondering_it_all]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: pondering_it_all
Some sufferers end up getting in lots of trouble, for example shooting up a pizza parlor.

Especially when said pizza parlor has no basement where the alleged crimes take place. coffee

Trump overwhelmingly leads rivals in support from less educated Americans
PBS.org
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#302289 - 07/13/17 12:00 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
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See, I told you guys it was pointless. Talking to legitimate scientific climatological critics ... well every climatologist is interested in ways to improve the science.
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#302290 - 07/13/17 12:07 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Donna laFramobise - another interesting name, who is she and why is she an important AGW critic?

She "is a Canadian investigative journalist, writer, and photographer."

Wow and Mr Swede found another "scientist" to rebut AGW with another compelling ... o she is not a scientist

I guess eventually there will be a scientist among the list of authorities who has made significant contributions to the science of climatology.

more to come
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ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#302291 - 07/13/17 12:09 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: pondering_it_all]
rporter314 Offline
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Posts: 6212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I always liked this theory. It reminded me of Pinky and the Brain .... scientists from everywhere trying to take over the world

But for some folks it is real
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without equality there is no liberty

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#302297 - 07/13/17 01:56 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
logtroll Offline
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Here is the post that stimulated this topic:
Originally Posted By: bigswede
Say, Logtroll, why is it you state "You can't fix a problem until you know what the problem is." in every post, yet you are not willing to wait and see if CO2 really is a problem?
My mind is open, what about your's?
You claim "But if the "climate scairdy cats" get their way and we do take corrective action, the benefits will be real and substantive - cleaner air, lower cost living, abundant and clean water, more productive agriculture, avoided displacement of inhabitants of low lying coastal regions, healthy oceans, ..."

But that will not be the case. The outcome of climate action is loss of freedom, monopoly business, economic ruin, a corporatist state and unfortunately ever more pollution (albeit of a different and probably more severe sort).

Can you support your claim above? Here is a sampling of what I see:

"loss of freedom" - one for instance of the reverse this being true is that rooftop solar, under the ownership and control of the building owner, is an increase of freedom in many ways.

"monopoly business" - right now I have to buy power from a private corporation that has been granted monopoly control over our electricity supply, and who is choosing coal as it's preferred energy source, because they get to pass all of the costs along to the ratepayers. In a perverse incentive, they like building generating capacity that costs the most because in their monopoly agreement they get to charge a healthy "profit" on top of their costs.

"a corporatist state" - see above.

"ever more pollution" - I have no idea what you are referring to.

Your turn...
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#302298 - 07/13/17 03:39 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Originally Posted By: bigswede
No one has yet shown that anthropogenically added CO2 to atmosphere is a problem. Thus far it's only a hypothesis.
So, is there a problem?
If so, what is the problem?
Will any of the proposed actions cure the imagined problem?
I have to dispute this claim's hypothesis. My evidence would be the stark contrast between the temperature rises historically (and prehistorically) to those that have occurred since the industrial revolution.

The problems are legion, and not hypothetical or imaginary. Climate change: facts versus opinions.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#302304 - 07/13/17 07:26 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
why would anyone feel compelled to convince a true believer of something they do not believe? by definition it is impossible, and by experience it is more than impossible
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#302305 - 07/13/17 08:09 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
bigswede Offline
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Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 300
I shall say this only once, directed at all of you.

AGW is politics, nothing else. That is why the IPCC reports are compiled in deliberation between politicians and their employed civil servants. Scientists are not welcome.

In history there are numerous examples of rulers wishing for a way to tax the air people breath in. They found no legal way to put a tax on something nature provided without human assistance.

Another thing history shows is that it's very much, almost entirely about energy. When climate was warm, humans did not need to use as much energy to gather food and did not have to gather as much fuel to heat houses. They had time and energy for other activities. Civilizations flourished.
The taming of draught animals and slavery, division of labour, further advanced technology and philosophy until coal, petroleum and other modern energy sources made slavery superfluous and a freedom for all became a possibility. Civilisation may reach new heights.

In 1896 a Swedish scientist, Svante Arrhenius deemed CO2 a greenhouse gas. He was also a founder and board member of the Swedish Eugenics society that later became the first official state run eugenics institution anywhere in the world.

One of Arrhenius' students was Bert Bolin who, together with his close friend Olof Palme (Swedish socialist PM) was instrumental in forming the IPCC after the Stockholm meeting 1972. Bolin became the first chairman of the IPCC.

Around 1970 the EPA scrutinized av variety of gases and air borne matter. Many of them were classified pollutants. But not CO2, which was deemed an inert gas.

In the 1970's there were alarms about a new ice age. But that did not produce incentive for people to save energy.

In 1989 the Norwegian socialist PM, Gro Harlem Brundtland, for the UNFCCC (the mother of IPCC) presented the report Our Common Future, where the dangers of CO2 were first presented to the public.

The Rio summit in 1992 became the official start for AGW. It was politics naming CO2 the culprit before there was a registered crime. Vast amounts of money was funneled into "climate research" looking for the anthropogenic signature to global warming.

Computer modelling was widely used. But none, not a single one of the models have been able to come up with the correct climate development even from known (registered historical) data. This indicates the models are useless to predict future climate.

The hunt for "climate change evidence" usurped more and more of research money. Practically no one is today able to enter the academic world with the aim of questioning AGW. Such a person will lack funding and will not be peer reviewed and not published. Many scholars have witnessed to this "streamlining" of research.

Politicians who do not lock in step will not be promoted by their party.

The easiest person to fool is an academic from another discipline. Just hint that they, with their high education are superior to common people, if they agree with what is proposed. If they don't they are labeled heretics. Deniers, as the current term is, alluding to denial of the Holocaust and denial of facts in general. This is dirty arguing and Scott Pruitt addressed it the other day.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/12/pruitt-climate-hypocrisy-merkel-europe-240479
And I will not debate any further under the topic that calls rational skeptics deniers.

The other group of people necessary to "win" the climate hoax is the lazy uninterested majority. Such majorities always takes the easy path of relying on authority. The UN is as good an authority as any, perhaps even more prestigious than most. When you accept to side with the UN and the lazy majority you effectively resign from reason.

With AGW those who want to control us found a way to tax what we all breath out, because it's a "pollutant". They all talk about Global Governance, a "one world order" and I can almost hear them say one glorious leader. The head of UNFCC, Christiana Figueres has stated that the Climate Change meme is not about the climate, it's about the eradication of capitalism.

Closing with a couple of recent links.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/07/05/exclus...urce=site-share
http://www.environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2017/6/21/are-we-headed-for-a-solar-waste-crisis
https://www.nationaleconomicseditorial.c...-waste-nuclear/
https://townhall.com/columnists/dennisav...manity-n2335975

Over and out!
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Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#302306 - 07/13/17 08:25 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: bigswede]
logtroll Offline
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From your post I can determine that you are scared of climate change science because of a 'fear of government' ideology, and all the conspiracy theories abounding about it.

Science is not your thing.

Thanks.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#302307 - 07/13/17 09:10 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: bigswede]
Ujest Shurly Offline
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Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 234
Loc: Michigan, USA
I'm just going to pick one "fact" from the many presented.


"One of Arrhenius' students was Bert Bolin..."

Svante Arrhenius -Born Feb 1859 - Died October 1927

Bert Bolin - Born May 1925 – Died December 2007




Edited by Ujest Shurly (07/13/17 09:15 PM)
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#302308 - 07/14/17 12:44 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: Ujest Shurly]
logtroll Offline
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Ignore - that's one of those irrelevant 'fact' things.
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#302309 - 07/14/17 01:53 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: bigswede]
rporter314 Offline
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Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I wrote this because I was a little bored after spending all day with my sick mother in the hospital.

>for the obvious reason the UN is a political body, just like Congress.


>interesting spculation but the reality is entrapenuers are the ones trying to sell air not rulers of countries(look it up)

>Not sure what all that is, but has nothing to do with global warming

>He didn't deem it a greenhouse gas. He was the first to quantify the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere. Later would the term "greenhouse" be used.

>and how does this impact climatology?

One of Arrhenius' students was Bert Bolin who

>what you mean is, he was a student of the works of Arrhenius, not an actual student in a class, just as I am a student of modelling theory but not a student of the Russian School.

>again what does the history lesson have to do with climatology?


>inert so that means what? does it mean it is not a greenhouse gas? A definition is necessary since I do not believe you know what it is.
Def Greenhouse gas :: "A greenhouse gas is a gas that absorbs infrared radiation (IR) and radiates heat in all directions." where do you see anything about being inert???

>again etc


>My Got ... did you read your own post. Arrhenius had already theorized and made the calculations for increased CO2 in the atmosphere that Man could easily cause the increases in CO2 which would result in increased surface temperatures. No one was looking for a culprit. The theory had been advanced and was waiting for data to see if it was a viable theory.


> You need to take a couple of 5 modelling theory classes becuase you do not understand modelling at all.

>Please provide a citation or i have to call you out .... bull poopoo. The very few times people submit critical AGW papers and it is peer reviewed, 100% of the time the paper is too weak from every stand point to be useless waste of time. This is why AGW do not submit research, it is not scientific.


> I don;t know what that means but I am sure it makes a great conspiracy


>A common misconception among non-scientists ie scientists are all stupid people ... well .... because they are too smart for their own good.

Scientists follow the facts not PR men or sophomoric attempts at science or investigative reporters. It has nothing to do with being labelled a heretic and has everything to do with analyzing the facts.

Sec Pruitt is a denier for maybe a couple of reasons none of which ahs anything to do with science and probably more to do with idiotology. His criticism of Merkel was disingenuous. The German have had coal plants in the works for years but they are slowly (more slowly than they want) taking coal and nuclear off line. The reason for taking nuclear off line is not some hypocrisy but the inherent dangers of nuclear plants and the spent fuel rods. Wake up.



>I have completely destroyed what you believe is rational scepticism.



> It is not a polluntant and no one says it is, Why would you lie?????
>Christiana Figueres did not say that but right wing pundits did derive that conclusion. So why would you lie???? A better use of what she said would be a discussion of what she meant.

You say you are a rational sceptic and yet you made no scientific appeal to any facts which would be a rebuttal to AGW. You are a denier because you believe there is a conspiracy of scientists and commies who have in secret conspired to enslave you and yet you have no evidence of that and I can point to a ton of scientific evidence AGW is real.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#302340 - 07/16/17 07:56 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
pdx rick Offline
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This week, the Republican-controlled House retained an amendment to the 2018 defense funding bill affirming that “climate change is a direct threat to the national security of the United States.”

It orders defense officials to draw up a report laying out which facilities would be most affected.

Climate deniers shake their tiny fists in fury and scream:

Quote:
Damn you cuck RINOs!
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#302349 - 07/16/17 09:01 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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I guess the mainstream Republicans want real facts when it comes to defense. Not the place for their crazy alt-right fanatics.

This leads us to an interesting conclusion: Most Republican Congressmen don't actually believe any of that nonsense, but consider the crazies to be useful idiots.

I think this will sort of come to a head, when armed crazies come to DC after their wive or kid dies for lack of insurance coverage. Republican Congressmen voted to make sure crazy people can get guns. They very recently voted to let people carry concealed weapons into the Capital! Somebody already tried to kill one of them. How many more incidents before they admit some of their ideological votes are not practical?

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#302357 - 07/17/17 12:44 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
NW Ponderer Offline
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At least one more, Miss Swan. As always.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#302376 - 07/18/17 08:31 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
jgw Offline
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Loc: Port Angeles, WA
The deniers are simply exercising their ignorance and their ability to do what their leaders tell them to. Their leaders, on the other hand, have been bought and paid for by the carbon producers who have also paid their pet scientists to lie their heads off for the big bucks. It is, in other words just more evidence of the greed and lack of concern for the nation.

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#302403 - 07/22/17 10:39 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
matthew Offline
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Registered: 03/24/16
Posts: 319
'
There is one important factor besides money.

Most of the "useful idiots" brainwashed by the Denialist Cabal have been conditioned to be hysterical about "big government" and regulation.

To do anything really effective about global warming clearly must involve global governmental intervention and regulation. For many of these mindless retards, it is more acceptable to deny that they had a mother than admit that a global climate emergency exists.

Our situation requires an effort equivalent to waging World War II.

Ironically, most of the Denialists are proud supporters of the governmental intervention and regulation required by World War II.

But then they have been brainwashed that all intervention and regulation is fine and dandy if it supports the War Machine.

A classic case of George Orwell's "double think."
.
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#302405 - 07/22/17 11:40 PM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: matthew]
logtroll Offline
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Originally Posted By: matthew
There is one important factor besides money.

Most of the "useful idiots" brainwashed by the Denialist Cabal have been conditioned to be hysterical about "big government" and regulation.

I agree.

I have been testing this around some Regressive sites and have come to the conclusion that the single most influential factor behind right wing ideology is hatred of the government. For them it as much a fact as God... it is not a subject that they will consent to discuss.
_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#302406 - 07/23/17 12:19 AM Re: What are the climate change deniers scared of? [Re: logtroll]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Quote:
the single most influential factor behind right wing ideology is hatred of the government


Now that the federal government is trying to gather up everybody's voter information, these true patriots should immediately cancel their voter registration. Don't want to be in that big federal government database. That's how they know where you live to come for your guns!

We should make sure all the right-wing websites post this.

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