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#302511 - 07/30/17 03:12 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40562
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
...he made those TWO VERY GRAVE mistakes which cost him his chances.

Which mistakes were those? Conducting government business with and from a private server in his bathroom, or saying he took (imaginary) Bosnian fire at an airport? coffee

- or -

Was Bernie's "mistake" not realizing the possibility of being sabotaged by Debbie Wasserman-Schultz? Hmm
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#302515 - 07/30/17 09:34 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7103
Loc: North San Diego County
I think his main mistake was not being a Democrat for a decade or two. Are you really surprised some hard-core Democrats resented him crashing the Party? He just "became" a Democrat in order to run, and then promptly left after the election. That's not what somebody does if they want the Party to move in their direction. They join the Party and work at it, maybe for years. A US Senator would certainly have a lot of influence within the Party. Especially a Senator with a lot of seniority on committees.

There IS room within the Party for left-leaning members, both as members and as candidates. How can the Party move to the left, if lefties leave the Party? You don't leave. You stay and counterbalance the Clintons.

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#302558 - 08/04/17 05:29 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: pdx rick]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Bernie's a new deal democrat that has worked tirelessly on issues that support the working class. The Democratic party today is a meritocracy party that sides with the colledge edjumicated professional class IMHO.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Bernie's mistake was to stay loyal to the parties FDR New Deal roots whereas the Democratic party has drifted further and further to the right with centrism over the decades leaving white working class voters 'Ladders of Opportunity' instead?.....

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#302559 - 08/04/17 06:15 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
Member
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40562
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
...the Democratic party has drifted further and further to the right with centrism over the decades leaving white working class voters 'Ladders of Opportunity' instead?.....

I agree. I've said on RR many times that I felt that HClinton was too "center-right" - but other Ranters said that her policies and Bernies were nearly identical.

Those policies never seemed identical to me. Hmm
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#302560 - 08/04/17 06:35 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7103
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
The Democratic party today is a meritocracy party that sides with the colledge edjumicated professional class IMHO.


So Bernie's "Free College Tuition" position was meant to lift young people out of his demographic, so he would have fewer people supporting him? That doesn't make much sense.

Siding with the "working man" had to face reality. Those coal mining and assembly line jobs were going away, and the new jobs like solar installation, coding, medical assisting, automation tech, and such were going to replace them no matter what politicians did. Somebody claiming to support people working at jobs that barely exist wouldn't work.

That's the reason the Democratic Party changed. It had to because it's supposed target audience was disappearing. It has never represented the economic interests of the idle rich or business owners (other than their interest in not being eaten by the starving poor), and it still doesn't.

And ALL Democrats, including the Clintons, support non-academic training programs and technical schools for those who want to get to work without wasting time on a fancy college degree. They also support increased minimum wages for the bottom of the economic ladder and even rights for the undocumented.

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#302563 - 08/04/17 10:11 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: pondering_it_all]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
"So Bernie's "Free College Tuition" position was meant to lift young people out of his demographic, so he would have fewer people supporting him? That doesn't make much sense.

Siding with the "working man" had to face reality. Those coal mining and assembly line jobs were going away, and the new jobs like solar installation, coding, medical assisting, automation tech, and such were going to replace them no matter what politicians did. Somebody claiming to support people working at jobs that barely exist wouldn't work.

That's the reason the Democratic Party changed. It had to because it's supposed target audience was disappearing. It has never represented the economic interests of the idle rich or business owners (other than their interest in not being eaten by the starving poor), and it still doesn't.

And ALL Democrats, including the Clintons, support non-academic training programs and technical schools for those who want to get to work without wasting time on a fancy college degree. They also support increased minimum wages for the bottom of the economic ladder and even rights for the undocumented."

Pity she couldn't sell that to the rust belt states and western Pennsylvania. But then again, she was defeated by sanders in the rust belt. I think Sanders went there before the primary didn't he? I believe He went beyond the college and hospital towns. Then his platform got bought out by Clinton Inc. for the DNC convention.
I think it's time to ask if it wouldn't have been better for the DNC to have gotten behind the Sanders camp in hindsight?
I'm asking the losing Clinton camp if they've gone to the mountain? Do you see it? Do you see the truth as Corbyn has shown?!
When you go left you energize the base and get turn out.
No? Not yet?
Well, sooner or later, the DNC establishment will get lucky and their opposition will draw a losing hand. Then they'll nail em with those dueces they've been hanging onto.....


Edited by chunkstyle (08/04/17 10:14 PM)

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#302564 - 08/04/17 10:57 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: chunkstyle]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7103
Loc: North San Diego County
Quote:
I think it's time to ask if it wouldn't have been better for the DNC to have gotten behind the Sanders camp in hindsight?


Sanders always polled well because the Republicans NEVER attacked him. Who wouldn't love to run against a self-proclaimed Socialist? They desperately wanted him to win the nomination because then they could have screamed "COMMIE" nonstop until the election. By the time they were done with him, even Democrats would not have voted for him. You can't win the election by getting 10% of the votes.

I actually like Sanders and I'm sure he would make a MUCH better President than the doofus we have now. But too many Americans would respond to Republicans calling him a communist, dredging up all that 20th century paranoia. For most everyone over 30, a communist is the worst thing possible.

There is also some stuff going around about Sanders supporting child-sex advocates. I don't know much about that but you know what the Republicans do with a juicy story with the tiniest bit of truth to it. That would be blasted on Fox News 7/24. (See wiki article on Judith Levine, who Bernie is known to support.)

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#302565 - 08/04/17 11:39 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: pdx rick]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
In spite of the news blackout of the Sanders campaign, the ny times and Washington post in particular, Sanders was packing them in. The lesson here is that an FDR democrat, with a small war chest and significantly smaller organization, no corporate money but instead funding thru small personal contributions, nearly upset the preferred neoliberal corporate candidate.
I don't think that was on account of sanders telegenic good looks or his seductive Brooklyn Jewish accent. At least not in Michigan or Wisconsin I'm guessing.
But you may have a point PIA. Someone may have yelled 'COMMIE!' In the general election and Sanders inclusive populist message would have been abandoned by his crowds. The spell would have been broken, the stars falling from their eyes.
Maybe.
But I doubt it.
Given the choice between the final candidates we saw what happenned. A choice betwwen the ultimate insider and the rock throwing outsider. The DNC did not know what time it was when they threw the sanders campaign under the bus.
Hell, sanders has at least gone back to West Virginia and Wisconsin since the election.
He sees the problems at the ground level. The same could not be said of the centrists. There were willing to let down some ladders though. After 35 years of incremental loss the white working class turned to the other outsider.


Edited by chunkstyle (08/04/17 11:47 PM)

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#302566 - 08/05/17 01:52 AM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7103
Loc: North San Diego County
I think it was tragic myself. If only he had been an actual FDR Democrat, and not self-labelled as a Socialist!

There is certainly room in the Democratic Party for those as left as Sanders. There NEED to be those as left as Sanders in the Democratic Party. He would have won, and we would not be having this unending nightmare now.

Of course, if he actually WAS President he would still have to work with Congress to get anything done. Including Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats, so I suspect he would be forced to compromise on a lot of his ideas.

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#302573 - 08/05/17 01:36 PM Re: Bernie 2020 [Re: pdx rick]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
It don't think it was his branding as a self described socialist (FDR New Dealist really) that would have been a fatal flaw for his campaign. Clearly it wasn't in the primary.
Hindsights interesting to look back and see who was calling it correctly. I believe Tiabbi nailed it once again with both Sanders and the internal flaws of our political system. Worth a re-read:
A Case for Sanders

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