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#298876 - 02/21/17 04:22 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: bigswede]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16056
Originally Posted By: bigswede
Funny thing, I was a classic liberal in the ways of J.S. Mill back in 1960. I haven't changed anything substantial since then.
So many statements made here belie the veracity of that assertion it boggles the mind. As soon as one uses the term "classical liberal" for themselves, one can be assured a classical deception follows. It's like saying, "I'm not a racist, but... " and here one is not disappointed:
Originally Posted By: bigswede
But now people feel OK calling me conservative. They must have moved the goalposts, a common practice among the left, like Josef Stalin & CO. Yes they've had lot of help from some of the MSM.
Classical misdirection. One cannot trust the MSM, one can only rely on the BSM.

Originally Posted By: bigswede
As to islam, it sets itself apart very much from christianity and the New Testament. Read the dam thing (The Koran) if you can bear it all the way through!
I suspect the reading was as cursory as the reading of Mill... understanding the words is not the same as understanding the concepts. It appears, here, that such understanding is, shall we say, selective. Quick which Koranic verse is this.: "destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves, For thou shalt worship no other god"

Originally Posted By: bigswede
Personally, I don't believe in any god or deity. Religion has, in my opinion, no place in the government of man, no place in a democratic society.
Thankfully, something upon which we agreed wholly.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298879 - 02/21/17 05:16 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: NW Ponderer]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 323
@ NW ponderer
I'm dismayed to read your comments about my disclosure about my political position and of my understanding of the Koran. You only present assumptions of your own, which is tantamount to ad hominem and in reality just BS. I really expected better from you!

Glad we agree on religion and government.
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Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298881 - 02/21/17 05:52 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: bigswede]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Posts: 16056
A reality-based discussion of Sweden's immigration experience: Extinguishing Donald Trump’s Swedish Immigration 'Fire'.

I would say, ad argumentum, my friend. What I am objecting to its the sweeping generalizations and misdirection included in your statements. Like Trump, the technique is to overwhelm with baseless assertions, thus shutting down opposition. For example, please provide a link to your sources for crime statistics by ethnicity. Please identify any instance where someone asserted that Sweden has no problems, as you allege.

You describe yourself as a "classic liberal" - which runs contrary to the views you have expressed here. I have found, and that is borne out here, that when one self-identifies as a "classic liberal" that is to avoid being perceived as a "libertarian-conservative". I've read Mill, and I know he was a member of the "Liberal" party of his day, but his views are far from what the modern usage of "liberal" implies. I describe that as misdirection.

I seek, as I always do, to direct the conversation to observable facts, and avoid hyperbole and vacuous claims or misdirection. I was intending simply to apply that matrix to this discussion. If I overstepped, I apologize, but maybe, too, it is like Trump supporters "adopting" the deplorable label...

BTW, do you have a response to the substance of anything in my post?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298882 - 02/21/17 06:03 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: bigswede]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 16056
I'll be more specific:
ASSERTION: "The Swedes today seem to defend their own government's propaganda. That doesn't mean they actually believe it." Evidence?

ASSERTION: "They must have moved the goalposts, a common practice among the left, like Josef Stalin & CO. Yes they've had lot of help from some of the MSM." Evidence? (Or, Franky, point?)

ASSERTION: "There was a riot in Stockholm last night in the immigrant dense suburb of Rinkeby. Complete with car burnings, rock throwing at the police and a shot fired from the police into the crowd.
One elder immigrant, living there since 1972, said on national TV that these new immigrants can't be trusted, send them back, they are destroying our homes and our good life in Sweden." Source?

ASSERTION: "As to islam, it sets itself apart very much from christianity and the New Testament." Basis?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#298887 - 02/21/17 07:17 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6433
Loc: Highlands, Tx
I do not believe Mr Big Swede has legitimate answers but perhaps I may comment to your questions/assertions.

Riots erupt in Sweden’s capital ...

1. I would think this is a typical response from anyone who wishes to misrepresent the facts. In the above article it mentions government stats and responses and people who have contrary beliefs. It does not mean it is factual. A current domestic example is the belief among conservatives and in particular Trump supporters the world is on the verge of end time apocalypse. The facts however paint a far different picture. Spkr Gingrich said facts do not matter when people believe the false perceptions they have been feed (I am paraphrasing & extrapolating)

2. The meaning of words are not static as if frozen in time unless one is a conservative. A Liberal in 1860 is not the same as a Liberal today and a Lincoln Republican (as much as want this to be true) is not the same party as today's Republican Party, nor is the Democrat Party of 1878 which supported the KKK the same as the Party today (as much as conservatives like to say it is the same). The logical extension of this fallacious thinking results in conservatives believing the National Socialists are liberals and the Democratic Republic of Germany was a democracy.

3. see citation for views from both sides. Overall this article refutes Mr Big Swede's belief.

4. Its been a long time since I read it but as I recall it is an Abrahamic religion not a Christian religion. Thus Islam and Christianity are siblings, the children of Judaism.

I have no problem with religion, but I do have a problem when it is mixed with a secular government. If the Founders wanted a theocracy, they would have founded it that way. All of the religious zealots who have gained elective office and raise the Bible above the Constitution should be impeached i.e. thrown out of office.

Clearly I do not believe Mr Big Swede would agree with any of these comments as they are not supported by Breitbart's view. Perhaps Mr Big Swede can drill down with some facts to support his positions?
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#298889 - 02/21/17 07:29 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Online   sick


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13196
Loc: Whittier, California
Equating so called "classic liberalism" with liberalism is like equating classic guitar music with classic rock.
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#298891 - 02/21/17 07:35 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Equating so called "classic liberalism" with liberalism is like equating classic guitar music with classic rock.

Mr. 'Big' Swede did state that was in 1960. Heck! I wasn't even born then! laugh
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#298893 - 02/21/17 07:44 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: NW Ponderer]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 323
First of all I can't see the substance in your previous post, where you ascribed certain characteristics to me.

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
I'll be more specific:
ASSERTION: "The Swedes today seem to defend their own government's propaganda. That doesn't mean they actually believe it." Evidence?

https://parnassen.wordpress.com/2017/02/20/last-night-in-sweden-trump-is-right/
http://www.friatider.se/nu-star-fler-an-200000-upp-for-peter-springare
Also I get e-mails from friends in Sweden saying the country is falling apart with the overwhelming propaganda in the media and the way the people do not recognize how the reality is portrayed.
Note that in Sweden their primary source of information is that state run TV and radio. Newspapers gets subsidized with millions each year. They all hate independent news outlets and bloggers. There is at proposition by the government to give more over the freedom of press and the freedom speech, to the subsidized media! This is happening in the country with the oldest freedom of press in the world.
Prominent Swedes of all kinds, former MEPs of the European Parliament, The Swedish Parliament, top leaders of the business society, including the almost royal family of Volvo are constantly warning on their private blogs that the entire country is going down the sh*thole!
http://henrikalexandersson.blogspot.se/2017/02/5-juli-podden-41-terrorism.html
https://anthropocene.live/2017/02/19/the-trans-border-empire/
https://detgodasamhallet.com/2017/02/19/vad-brakar-man-om/
http://erixon.com/blogg/


Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
ASSERTION: "They must have moved the goalposts, a common practice among the left, like Josef Stalin & CO. Yes they've had lot of help from some of the MSM." Evidence? (Or, Franky, point?)

New speak was one method the socialists in "1984" used to deceive the people. It is also tactic deployed by MSM. Just open your eyes!

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
ASSERTION: "There was a riot in Stockholm last night in the immigrant dense suburb of Rinkeby. Complete with car burnings, rock throwing at the police and a shot fired from the police into the crowd.
One elder immigrant, living there since 1972, said on national TV that these new immigrants can't be trusted, send them back, they are destroying our homes and our good life in Sweden." Source?

http://www.friatider.se/upplopp-i-rinkeby-polis-skot-varningsskott
http://www.friatider.se/riots-and-looting-notorios-stockholm-suburb
The opposition leader in the Swedish parliament said today, "We must take back the power in these immigrant residences."
http://www.friatider.se/kinberg-batra-efter-rinkeby-vi-m-ste-terta-makten
Swedish state TV local Stockholm news
http://www.svtplay.se/video/12491670/svt...-35?tab=senaste

Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
ASSERTION: "As to islam, it sets itself apart very much from christianity and the New Testament." Basis?

Jesus teaches forgiveness and turning the other cheek in the NT. The Koran teaches nothing like that. It teaches not to associate with non-muslims. It teaches harsh divine punishment for the the unbelievers. It teaches that judaism and christianity were the first two series of warnings from God but the Koran is the true last and final warning, thus the only one that counts.
Islam approves of deceit against non-muslims. Therefore us non-muslim can't trust them. Very simple, their own words.
Of course there are a lot of muslim that do not take that side of the religion serious. But how are we to know which ones?

Sorry for several of the sources being in Swedish, but that's just the way it is.
_________________________
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!

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#298895 - 02/21/17 07:51 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: bigswede]
pdx rick Offline
Member
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40930
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
Originally Posted By: bigswede
The Koran teaches nothing like that. It teaches not to associate with non-muslims.

So does the Bible: rolleyes

======

2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

2 John 1:10-11 ESV

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

1 Corinthians 15:33 ESV / 142 helpful votes

Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

Matthew 12:30 ESV / 138 helpful votes

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

1 Corinthians 5:11 ESV

But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

Ezekiel 33:9 ESV

But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.

Romans 12:2 ESV

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Galatians 6:10 ESV

So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Colossians 4:5-6 ESV

Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Mark 16:16 ESV

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 8:7 ESV

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

=============

Need more evidence? coffee

As I wrote above, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions with the same poems and same God. If you condemn one, you condemn ALL THREE. Hmm

...because if you chose to only condemn one, you're being intellectually dishonest. smile
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#298897 - 02/21/17 08:35 PM Re: Trump Forum [Re: pdx rick]
bigswede Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/25/16
Posts: 323
Doesn't really prove much. Some people always try to control others in the name of God.
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