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#302788 - 08/20/17 07:30 AM Re: Charolottesville [Re: chunkstyle]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Originally Posted By: chunkstyle
Well two out of three ain't bad


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#302789 - 08/20/17 07:40 AM Re: Charolottesville [Re: NW Ponderer]
pdx rick Offline
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Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
The "free speech rally" in Boston fizzled spectacularly as peaceful counter-protesters outnumbered them about 50:1.

The real issue is that Fascist CONservatives think that consequence-free speech is First Amendment protect speech against government (by extension Presidential) actions.
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#302791 - 08/20/17 01:38 PM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Registered: 09/09/11
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Originally Posted By: pdx rick
Originally Posted By: Jeffery J. Haas
Their platform, for anyone interested in reading their sermons and screeds, is anarchy.
They do not HAVE THE SUFFICIENT NUMBERS to MAKE an impact ON THIER OWN so they align with the liberals and the Left.

Anarchy IS a Leftwing political philosophy. Hmm

No, it is not. Anarchy, or anarchists, is just "against government". It's the antithesis of "left wing" (socialism).
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#302792 - 08/20/17 01:55 PM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
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Hmm

It's my understanding that Anarchy came as a split from Marxism. Anarchists believe that the state will always be oppressive, no matter who is in charge. Anarchists want to go straight to a classless, stateless society.

Some anarchist theories believe in the worker ownership of industry, some in the communal ownership of industry, others in the destruction of industry, depending on the flavor of anarchism
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#302797 - 08/20/17 06:03 PM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
NW Ponderer Offline
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Nice slide, but who's it from? (I'll hazard a guess). This kind of linear thinking comes from an incomplete/simplistic understanding of anarchism (and political philosophy generally). While early anarchists were associated with the left, that is because they were against the governments of their time who were all right of centre. The splits within anarchism followed shortly after labor movements and bolshevik revolutions occurred. Now most anarchist movements are delineated by what they are against. left anarchism is a thing, but so is anarcho-capitalism (free marketeers) and "post-left" anarchism.

I admit, I don't like the whole "left-right" paradigm as it is incomplete and misleading, preferred by the right to tar all with the same brush. It is really hard to tell Stalin from Hitler in the real world. There are better models. I prefer the "political compass" approach. It has two axes, which helps, but is still fairly crude. Enough of my political science nerdism. I think we can all agree that white nationalists, Nazis and supremecists are scum.
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A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#302802 - 08/20/17 07:41 PM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
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In a lot of ways, anarchists and libertarians are very similar!

They both want to make all decisions for themselves and have no government control.

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#302803 - 08/20/17 08:20 PM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


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Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12612
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


I support AntiFa because they will punch a American Nazi in the face. smile



I'm all for that part but the problem is, I don't WANT to "smash capitalism" and erase the American state and all other nation-states and their institutions.
You don't get to align with Anti-Fa and then pick and choose what part of their ideology to support.
If you identify as Anti-Fa (the group) you identify with everything that they believe in.
Same thing with groups like International A.N.S.W.E.R.
I don't want to be a communist. I am against war and racism but I don't love communism.
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#302805 - 08/20/17 08:22 PM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline


Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 12612
Loc: Whittier, California
Originally Posted By: pdx rick


Hmm

It's my understanding that Anarchy came as a split from Marxism. Anarchists believe that the state will always be oppressive, no matter who is in charge. Anarchists want to go straight to a classless, stateless society.

Some anarchist theories believe in the worker ownership of industry, some in the communal ownership of industry, others in the destruction of industry, depending on the flavor of anarchism


It's an immature concept, another goddam utopia.
Not interested in utopias, they always wear out before the warranty period is over, and customer support for broken utopias is nonexistent.
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The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. - H. L. Mencken

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#302810 - 08/21/17 12:15 AM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
pondering_it_all Offline
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Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 6952
Loc: North San Diego County
I'm right in the Socialist/Liberalism divide. I would love it if America could be more like some countries that are Socialist, but I'm not sure you can get there from here. And being able to get there is more important to me than any particular ideology. Maybe that's because I am a scientist/engineer: I have to see exactly how something can work without depending on miracles.

The rest go from stupid to downright ugly. All that "smash the state" nonsense is in reaction to 19th century states that were all EXTREMELY right wing. If governments were all Socialist, I think the Anarchists would be out of business from lack of participation. I suspect most Antifa members have regular jobs or are supported by families that enjoy many benefits of a Liberal government.

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#302811 - 08/21/17 01:33 AM Re: Charolottesville [Re: pdx rick]
pdx rick Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 40433
Loc: Puget Sound, WA


I've never studied Anarchy, it's never been a part of my educational curriculum. What I know of anarchy, I've learned on the internet. gobsmacked

It's true. Hmm
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