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#303437 - 10/12/17 10:54 PM The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
Quote:
Several months ago, according to two sources with knowledge of the conversation, former chief strategist Steve Bannon told Trump that the risk to his presidency wasn’t impeachment, but the 25th Amendment—the provision by which a majority of the Cabinet can vote to remove the president. When Bannon mentioned the 25th Amendment, Trump said, “What’s that?” According to a source, Bannon has told people he thinks Trump has only a 30 percent chance of making it the full term.
“I Hate Everyone in the White House!”: Trump Seethes as Advisers Fear the President Is “Unraveling” - Vanity Fair.

We previously had some discussions about removing Trump from the presidency, and that impeachment seemed a long shot. I had opined that the 25th Amendment seemed a better option, for a number of reasons. My question here, is: Would the removal of Trump be a real precedent for the use of the 25th Amendment? The Amendment provides:
Quote:
“Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.”


This question is being raised all over the MSM: When do we reach 25th Amendment territory? - Jennifer Rubin, WaPo opinion; Using the 25th Amendment to depose Trump would require a Cabinet mutiny - CNN; Why the 25th Amendment is suddenly getting so much attention - MSNBC (Maddow Blog).

I personally think the circumstances under which it might be invoked would be rare. I mean, seriously, are we likely to face another Trump-like candidate? (Before next election cycle?) Can sanity return? Obviously, removing Trump - while it would be a relief for 70% of the electorate, it would inspire militia-inspired action from his rabid, conspiracy-addled "base".
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303438 - 10/13/17 02:11 AM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Trump is the perfect virus to knock the legs out from under secular democracy.
Take a long close look at all the institutions he and his bunch have been targeting. It is not JUST "a welfare state" that is being dismantled...that's a tiny fraction of it.

It is the ENTIRE system, everything enshrined in the Constitution...the First Amendment, Fourth Amendment, 13th, 14th, you name it.
It's the social contract, the public sector, the public sphere and public works and goods.

It is also the PAID FOR safety nets like Social Security and Medicare, and it is the entire palette of public services.
And NONE of it is by accident, it is ALL by DESIGN, design which has been carefully nurtured and brought into being for forty years.
And now go and search for the people who are closest to this mission and ask yourself WHY, who benefits, and ask what the end goal is.
You can start by studying so called "Christian Reconstructionism" and the subset known as the Dominionists.
Once you understand what this group wants, ALL of this will make perfect sense.

It is NOT JUST "the one percent"...that is just the economic class warfare sector. As much as they wish they could do it all by themselves, they never could, not without great cost and unsure stability in the aftermath.
Nope, they needed an unpaid army of people who had commonality with them in their hatred of secular democracy and public services.
Wealthy right leaning libertarian billionaires have common ground with Dominionists because the above is inconvenient to them.

Dominionists hate the above because it interferes with their mission to establish dominance in the Seven Mountains.
The wealthiest one percent succeeded in tying the knot with the Dominionists in order to use them as tools, but make no mistake...the wealthiest one percent could disappear at this point and the
Dominionists would still have the necessary funds and the ways and means to make their mission a reality now.

This is the End Game, the checkmate moves.
Once secular democracy dies, and civil order collapses, we will be ripe for authoritarian theocracy and fascism, masquerading as "LAW AND ORDER", wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304044 - 11/21/17 03:22 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: Jeffery J. Haas]
logtroll Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 8802
Loc: New Mexico (not old Mexico)
A picture is worth a thousand words.... here is the Trump National Policy Strategy for America:

_________________________
"You can't fix a problem until you understand what the problem is." Logtroll

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#304212 - 12/03/17 06:50 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
I've done a little bit of research, and I've come to a definitive conclusion: Donald Trump has been the worst example in every endeavor he has been involved in. I can't find a redeeming counterpoint - anywhere. Let's start with the basics. Son: he demanded money from his father to patch up failing real estate schemes, then said he was a "self-made" millionaire and got nothing from his father but a "small loan." link. Student: other than incidents of bullying, not much is known about his academic achievements, except that he was sent to a military school to learn discipline (it didn't take), and was a mediocre student at best.
Quote:
Trump spent only two years at Penn, having transferred to Wharton as a junior from Fordham in New York City. He was hardly a stellar student (never making the dean’s list, despite repeatedly telling the New York Times he graduated first in his class). He lived off-campus and didn’t take part in much campus life, spending his weekends in New York working in his dad’s real estate business.
Politico

Husband: Seriously? Trump has had three wives, all models, and he cheated on all of them. He bragged, frequently, about his "conquests" while he was still married. And who can forget the infamous "Access Hollywood" tape. Father: I don't think I need to elaborate here. Donald, Jr., Eric, Ivanka, Barron... oh, and Tiffany. I'll give his offspring at least this much: when you have Donald Trump as your father, you have a lot to overcome. Most, so far, have failed to do so, although Tiffany may have a chance.

Real estate mogul: Although he likes to tout his expertise here, it's actually pretty lacking. His company filed for bankruptcy four times, and most of his Trump run real estate ventures have failed. Donald Trump's Many Business Failures, Explained - Newsweek. By the 1990's, US banks wouldn't lend to him anymore. "[I]n 2004, he presented unaudited financials to Deutsche Bank while seeking a loan, claiming he was worth $3.5 billion. The bank concluded Trump was, to say the least, puffing; it put his net worth at $788 million, records show." Businessman: A Complete List of Donald Trump’s Business Disasters 'nuff said.

Political candidate: Although Trump is sitting in the White House, that cannot be attributed to his actual acumen. Prior to clinching the Republican nomination, Trump was routinely getting about 17% of the Republican vote. Now, that may not seem like much, and it isn't, it was better than his NUMEROUS opponents. As other candidates dropped out, his percentages improved - again, among Republican primary voters. What the eventual nomination proved was two-fold: Republicans will vote for anyone with an R next to their name (e.g., Roy Moore), regardless of qualifications, and the primary process is irretrievably broken. Finally, it cannot be overlooked that he lost the popular vote by the greatest margin ever recorded for a winning candidate.

President: I don't think I need to elaborate.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#304844 - 01/04/18 05:42 AM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
Jeffery J. Haas Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 13163
Loc: Whittier, California
Things are starting to really snowball.

Duty To Warn

Experts discuss why President Trump is psychologically unfit to serve the country, how he is dangerous, and why this is not a partisan matter, but, rather, a patriotic defense of democracy and our citizens.



GOP senator opted for private briefing - 25th amendment

Quote:
Yale School of Medicine’s Law and Psychiatry Division professor Dr. Bandy Lee was summoned to Capitol Hill in November to brief lawmakers on the 25th Amendment and President Donald Trump’s mental state, Politico reports.

On Dec. 5 and 6, Dr. Lee warned lawmakers, “he’s going to unravel, and we are seeing the signs.”

The private briefings included a Republican senator who Dr. Lee declined to identify.
_________________________
"He wakes up in the morning, ****s all over Twitter, ****s all over us, ****s all over his staff, then hits golf balls."
---Congressman Peter King

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#304849 - 01/04/18 02:16 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6419
Loc: Highlands, Tx
does anyone have a list of a majority of cabinet heads who would vote for incapacitation?

I just looked at a list of these folks and I don't think anyone could get more than 8 to vote for it. Other than Tillerson and the generals, most are idiot-olgoues or strong Trump supporters. So the question is, how is anyone going to convince the true believers to vote for incapacitation?
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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#304857 - 01/04/18 07:29 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7627
Loc: North San Diego County
When Trump starts drooling and speaking nonsense words, they might decide they have to act. Pence may be a jerk but at least he's not 4 years old.

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#304859 - 01/04/18 07:38 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
NW Ponderer Offline
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15969
Here's what, at present, is the insurmountable obstacle: Donald Trump was elected in the full view of the public with all of his mental health issues on full display. There was/is little doubt that he was truly unqualified for office at the time, yet millions of people voted for him anyway. Those people, or a large percentage anyway, will not admit their bad judgment. We're stuck with him.

True confession: I saw a headline about the "bomb cyclone" threatening the US. I thought it was about Trump...
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

Top
#304864 - 01/04/18 08:18 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7627
Loc: North San Diego County
From the new book:

Quote:
“Everybody was painfully aware of the increasing pace of his repetitions,” Wolff wrote. “It used to be inside of 30 minutes he’d repeat, word-for-word and expression-for-expression, the same three stories – now it was within 10 minutes. Indeed, many of his tweets were the product of his repetitions – he just couldn’t stop saying something.”

He added: “Hoping for the best, with their personal futures as well as the country’s future depending on it, my indelible impression of talking to them and observing them through much of the first year of his presidency, is that they all – 100% – came to believe he was incapable of functioning in his job.”

"At Mar-a-Lago, just before the new year, a heavily made-up Trump failed to recognize a succession of old friends."


Trump is in the final stages of a degenerative brain disease. He's starting to unravel. It won't be long now. I think 25th Amendment before Mueller gets to indicting many more people.

BTW: There is an audience of one who thinks you can stop the publication of a book with threats.

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#304867 - 01/04/18 08:31 PM Re: The Trump Precedency: the 25th Amendment [Re: NW Ponderer]
rporter314 Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 6419
Loc: Highlands, Tx
Quote:
yet millions of people voted for him anyway. Those people, or a large percentage anyway, will not admit their bad judgment

I hate anecdotes but will relate this as perhaps a small insight.

I frequent a place where most if not all people (old white guys) were/are Trump supporters. During the campaign while watching Fox there was a lot of whooping and hollering and frequent discussion with me regarding my opinion on a variety of topics. In my last few visits there is a quiet permeating the shuffling of dominoes even while watching Fox. Sometimes one of the group mentions the childish ... stupid ... moron ...etc occupying the WH, but no more discussions on issues.

I suppose one can conclude they are resigned to their choice and have boxed themselves in an increasing smaller room. I have concluded they have abandoned the man and yet still support the agenda.

I think we need a Christian zealot to take the reins, in order to sharpen the contrast between these folks and other choices.
_________________________
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty

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