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#303622 - 10/31/17 05:15 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Its true - the dems do have better plans. The dems are also, historically, better for the debt (the right just decided to gamble and run up the debt over a trillion dollars). The problem with the dems is that they don't communicate and ALLOW the right to lie their heads off with nary a peep from the left. The the left was serious they would start fighting back! It is, for instance, no mystery how Hillary got demonized - she never questioned any of the lies, for over 30 years, she just took it because, I guess, she was above that kind of nastiness (and look where that got her!).

The card carrying, signed up dems also need to take back their own party. Bernie is proud not to be a democrat. That's fine with me. My problem is that the Dems just rolled over for him and allowed him to run as a Democrat. Its insane. If the dems actually want to win they have to lay down some general planks and make sure that ANYBODY running under their banner subscribes to those planks. They should also insist that anybody running under their banner be a member of their party. I can remember when the communists tried a takeover of the Democratic party and that was simply not allowed. Now, any yahoo can run as anything, irregardless of party membership, beliefs, or anything else. This is simply crazy. The trick for the Dems is to lay out a set of principles that define them and is loose enough so that most folks on the left and middle can support them, right now nobody really knows what the hell they stand for and its the causes that cause the problems. A good example us abortion. For some strange reason you cannot be a dem and not believe that abortion is just dandy. I would submit that there are probably a bunch of people against abortion who also believe that reducing things like medicare and medicaid is a bad idea as is pouring poison from coal mining into running water is a bad idea but, because of the abortion thing these people are throwed out of the party. Causes <sigh> The left and right, for a very long time, simply were names of people who had a basic belief in what was right and its all, basically, about regulation. The problem with the dems is that they tend to go too far, the problem with the right is that they too go too far (we are not a people noted for moderation, I fear). This is why its important that each side sit down with the other and find if there is any common ground at all but to do that 'causes' should probably be left out of the conversation?

Another example is murder. I think that both sides can agree that murder is not a good thing. The trick, in this case, is that both sides first agree that its bad, define 'bad', and then put forward their views on to fix it. I suspect that both sides would find common ground rather quickly. Again, the trick is to pick the battles (not the causes) define, describe, and find a solution that everybody can live with.

Just a thought.................

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#303629 - 11/01/17 01:56 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Democrats moved to the right with Clinton and pretty much took over the moderate republican position. Bernie is the last vestige of the new deal democrats with the exception of his consistant approval of the war dept. budgets.
To not recognize the Sanders positions being predominantly moderate democratic positions of 40 years ago and to resent him running as a democrat would appear to me to be another sign of the success of the slow rightward drift. The Clingons went all in with neoliberalism while harking to liberal themes all the while passing neoliberal legislation. Obama wasn't much better and in some cases worse.
The right has been so crowded out of the middle ground that they've wound up in far right facist territory. The left is effectively dead. The march rightward continues. We continue to view the political terrain as left/ right instead of where were at, moderate right/ fascism struggle.
The actual progressive left has seen its party coopted. When they saw Bernie they saw what they had been looking for. A true progressive populist. I know of two car loads of supporters that took the 50 mile trip, one way, to hear him speak at a packed sports stadium. Hillary wished she had such enthusiasm.
People were ready to trust in progressive populism, they were there for it. Bernie was the man for the times. The Democratic Party, in the service of the donor class, had to shut him down.
Many progressives didn't vote, some yearning for a populist went with Trump. The democrats are blaming the Russians for the loss and resenting Bernie. He was saying the wrong things for the democratic corporate sponsers. True progressive politics can win. If only the Democratic Party could remember what that is.


Edited by chunkstyle (11/01/17 01:59 AM)

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#303632 - 11/01/17 11:51 AM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
What does Hillary Clinton believe? Where the candidate stands on 12 issues - PBS News Hour. 2016 Democratic Platform. It's mostly there. Did we forget how much of a populist Obama was?
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303638 - 11/01/17 03:04 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: NW Ponderer]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Originally Posted By: NW Ponderer
What does Hillary Clinton believe? Where the candidate stands on 12 issues - PBS News Hour. 2016 Democratic Platform. It's mostly there. Did we forget how much of a populist Obama was?


After reading that link to Hillary's positions, I'm convinced of the possibility that you do not know what progressive liberal policies are NWP. SHe is and has been a servant of corporate interest and the top 10%
Tax credits? Tax credits........
WE DONT NEED NO STINKING TAX CREDITS!!!!!
Tax credits are reserved for those earning enough to be able to take advantage of them. For the mojarity of us that is not a consideration let alone having the up front cash to take advantage of tax credits.
Not the time for single payer? Well when is a good time?
ETc...etc...etc...
She is not a liberal progressive. She's first and foremost a coporate democrat. AKA a centrists republican.
This is a problem with the Democratic party. They don't see (or are paid not to) a true progressive democrat when it's in front of their face. Nor does it seem they remember what one is.

what we don't hear from mainstream DEMS

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#303639 - 11/01/17 03:40 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Obama was not a populist. He merely spoke the language of a populist to elicit an emotional response. It didn't hurt that he looked radically different as well.
Comparing his actions for dealing with the banking scandals to those of FDR's is a way in which to measure how much of a populist Obama was.
The teachable moments were nice though.......

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#303643 - 11/01/17 05:44 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
Here's a recent example of what the democratic party used to sound like
Gone but now forgotten yet

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#303686 - 11/03/17 09:45 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
chunkstyle Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 658
I am curious to the sound of crickets over the Clinton election strategy that has been revealed by the confessions from Donna Brazile. She has vindicated what the Bernie camp had been saying thruout the primary. The DNC, supposedly a neutral facilitator of the contest, had been co-opted by Clinton money before the primary begun. A classic example of he who pays the coin calls the tune.
In the rabidness of our red team blue team duopoly there seems to be no wrongs that can be done by either teams champion. IMO, this has lead to both parties falling behind deeply flawed candidates. This tribalism is so powerful that it blinds the loyalists to the rot settling into their parties foundations. A clear example of winning arguments was in front of the citizenry but money, well applied, ruled the day.
Sanders arguments became Clintons arguments to co-op his supporters in much the same way the Clintons co-opted the DNC and subsequent primary race.
Instead of facing the hubris and lies of the democratic party THey're caught in a cheap spiral of scapegoating and excuse crafting.
Even now Sanders 'the same old ways of doing things in the democratic party isn't working' seems prophetic yet here we are.
'Sanders wasn't really a Democrat...'
'Sanders was a spoiler like Ralph Nader'
'the Russians...'
etc etc etc.....

Was the behind the scenes coup of the DNC by the Clintons more fruitful than the loud,angry and entertaining hostile take over of the RNC by Trump or did Sanders call it?

Will Democrats look in the mirror at long last or continue to blame everything else for their misfortunes and continue to listen to those neoliberal Ozark hustlers who "feel your pain"?






Edited by chunkstyle (11/03/17 09:48 PM)

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#303687 - 11/03/17 10:23 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: chunkstyle]
NW Ponderer Online   content
Moderator
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 15531
Wow, chunk, seems a nerve was stimulated. I agree that there are degrees of both populism and progressivism. But I don't believe in puritanism from either side of the aisle.

By the way, I think you mistake tax credits for deductions. Credits are EXACTLY what helps the less well off., especially refundable credits. Childcare, healthcare, education, etc, are what brings the tax burden down most for those who need it most. Deductions helps them who already have money.
_________________________
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.

Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich

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#303688 - 11/03/17 11:09 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
pondering_it_all Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 7095
Loc: North San Diego County
I thought the fact that Clinton made a deal to raise money for the Party was pretty much how these things work. Does any candidate for President ever NOT do this? Did Sanders not say he was going to support the Party and this was somehow unfair?

I think it was pretty obvious all along that Clinton was the Party candidate (for years and years) and Sanders was the Socialist who was just a Democrat in-name-only trying to use the Party to get elected. Now Socialists are all crying unfair, when actually Sanders should have just run as a Socialist candidate.

On the other hand, Sanders is welcome to become a Democrat any time he wants. The Party would be happy to have him, since we need more voices from the left within the Party. He and Warren could form a left-leaning caucus.

But back in the real world, if Sanders had been the Democratic candidate by the time Republicans got through screaming "COMMIE" in every medium, he would have got maybe 10% of the votes. Not won the popular vote by millions like Clinton.

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#303690 - 11/03/17 11:35 PM Re: the democratic plan to win [Re: jgw]
jgw Offline
member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1740
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
There is, currently, a LOT of whining over Bernie Sanders and the Democrats. I really do not understand. Why, for instance, would a self confessed Socialist even want to run as a Democrat whilst, at the same time, denying that he is a Democrat. This is, from my view, EXACTLY what is wrong with both parties. The real Democrats, those who paid their dues and are signed up members of the party have to take charge of THEIR party! Then they can do all the rest, state what, exactly they are for and against and what they stand for AS DEMOCRATS. Once that gets done they can get down to business. Right now, who knows? What does "Democrat" even mean?

The same thing applies to the Republicans. They too are being hijacked by outsiders and have remained even more silent than the Democrats. In either case who know what the hell they stand for. Its probably really time to start some new parties so everybody else will know, exactly, who stands for what because, right now, its not real easy to figure it out.

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